told us to wait on the side of the state but I felt weird waiting there so hopefully there wasn't too weird to watch cool thank you for having me here

叫我們在舞臺旁邊等，但我在那裡等感覺很奇怪，所以希望看起來不會太奇怪。謝謝邀請我來這裡

it's so great to follow ELLs when she's talking about this stuff cuz you get all excited except then my brain got all distracted with things I wanted to do

跟在Els後面講這些東西真的很棒，因為你會很興奮，但然後我的腦子就被想做的事情分散了

and I was like focus Joann that you have to go talk right now so there's lots to build on with what L said so I love the

我就像是專注Joann，你現在必須去講話。所以有很多可以在Els說的基礎上延伸的，所以我很喜歡

curriculum for cxl if this is your first time here the curriculum is so smart and everything just builds on everything so I'm gonna build on what else was talking

CXL的課程設計，如果這是你第一次來這裡，課程設計非常聰明，所有東西都環環相扣。所以我要延伸Els講的內容

about with a particular focus on taking that voice of customer data what customers are telling you and actually using it to turn it into copy that is at

特別關注如何取得客戶之聲資料，也就是客戶告訴你的東西，然後實際用它來轉化成至少

least ready to be tested or ready to put out there validated and experimented with I think we all kind of know academically that we are supposed to do

準備好被測試或準備放出去的文案，經過驗證和實驗。我想我們在學術上都知道我們應該要

that so if you read conversion XL or you've taken any of their courses like Momoko's course on copywriting you've heard that you should take the voice of

這樣做，所以如果你讀過Conversion XL或上過他們的課程，像Momoko的文案課程，你聽過要用客戶之聲

the customer and use it in your copy which is great right it's actually a nice kind of lazy approach to writing copy but how do you actually do it like

在你的文案裡，這很棒對吧？這實際上是一種很偷懶的寫文案方法。但你實際上要怎麼做？像是

how in practice do you do it and I can talk about this a lot about the whole concept of using voice of customer data but when it comes down to it I find that

在實務上你要怎麼做？我可以講很多關於使用客戶之聲資料的整體概念，但說到底，我發現

people have kind of a hard time understandably figuring out what to pull out of that voice of customer data out of those survey responses let's say or the interview transcript what do you

人們確實有困難理解要從那些客戶之聲資料中提取什麼，從那些調查回覆或訪談逐字稿中，你

actually pull out what do you pay attention to what do you use in your own copy afterward so we're gonna tackle that today but if you didn't know that

實際上要提取什麼？你要注意什麼？之後要在你的文案中用什麼？所以我們今天要來解決這個。但如果你不知道

you're supposed to be using voice of customer data in your coffee that is 100% okay I started out many many years ago not as a conversion copywriter but as creative copywriter at an agency

你應該在文案中使用客戶之聲資料，那完全沒關係。我很多年前開始，不是作為轉換文案師，而是作為廣告公司的創意文案師

tragically but that was where I thought and I actually took the job and I remember telling like my friends like I'm getting paid to write this is

悲慘的是，但那是我以為的，我實際上接了那份工作，我記得跟朋友說，我被付錢來寫東西，這

amazing so I was an English major was like a Creative Writing minor I was finally doing the thing that they tell you like you can't do one I had a job

太棒了。所以我是英文系的，算是創意寫作輔修，我終於在做他們說你不能做的事情。一，我有工作

too I was able to actually get paid to write or so I thought that was a big problem and it took me years to get over this idea that I'm being paid to write

二，我能夠被付錢來寫東西，或者我是這麼想的。那是一個大問題，我花了很多年才克服這個想法，就是我被付錢來寫東西

that's the opposite and I really wish that copywriting wasn't called copywriting because the Writing word is really misleading it's actually if you're doing it right it's not about

那恰恰相反。我真的希望文案寫作不叫文案寫作，因為「寫作」這個詞真的很誤導人。如果你做得對，它實際上不是關於

writing at all very little about maybe 10% of the work of actually writing copy is writing the rest of the work 100 like 90% everything else that adds up to

寫作，根本不是寫作。也許10%的實際寫文案的工作是寫作，其他100%，像90%加起來

hundred percent is just listening to customers because nobody cares about the English majors opinion on why you should buy that piece of software making it sound nice is completely not the point

百分之百的，就是聽客戶說話。因為沒有人在乎英文系學生對你為什麼應該買那個軟體的看法。讓它聽起來好聽完全不是重點

and in fact the nicer your copy sounds the less likely it is to actually land with more people when we're talking about writing for websites and emails in

而且實際上你的文案聽起來越好聽，就越不可能真正與更多人產生共鳴，當我們談論為網站和電子郵件寫作時

particular so I want to walk you through how we go about taking voice of customer data and putting it on the page and getting our own voices out of it

特別是這樣。所以我想帶你看我們如何取得客戶之聲資料並把它放在頁面上，把我們自己的聲音拿掉

because that's not actually what we're in this to do right our goal is to write copy that people see themselves in but not just themselves not at all some make

因為那實際上不是我們在這裡做的事，對吧？我們的目標是寫出讓人看到自己的文案，但不只是他們自己，不完全是某種

sure we're on the same thing yes we are so not just themselves as they are we're trying to help them see their current self and their immediate next self not

確保我們在同一個頁面上。是的，我們是。所以不只是他們現在的樣子，我們試著幫助他們看到他們當前的自我和他們下一個即刻的自我，不是

the best version of themselves but their immediate next self the person who is just a step away from where they are right now that's our job with copy

他們最好的版本，而是他們下一個即刻的自我，就是離他們現在位置只差一步的那個人，那是我們文案的工作

and I can't do that I don't know anybody's immediate next self I don't I might have a sense for their first self but not their immediate

而我做不到，我不知道任何人下一個即刻的自我，我不知道，我可能對他們第一個自我有感覺，但不是他們下一個即刻的

next self and that's what I have to look to voice of customer data for so how do we actually go about doing that we're gonna do that with voice of customer of

自我，那就是為什麼我要看客戶之聲資料。所以我們實際上要怎麼做？我們用客戶之聲當然

course and going through the actual data I'm gonna show you examples live not live I'm not gonna like do the research lab but you're gonna see the examples

然後看實際的資料。我會給你看例子，不是現場，我不會像是做研究實驗室，但你會看到後面的例子

behind me but in order to get there before we even go there let's pretend let's forget for a second that were at you know we're in growth marketing that

但為了到達那裡，在我們去那裡之前，讓我們假裝，讓我們暫時忘記我們在成長行銷裡，

were part of this world of optimization on websites and in emails and things like that let's back it up a bit and let's pretend that our job instead right

是這個網站和電子郵件等最佳化世界的一部分。讓我們退一步，假裝我們的工作，對吧，

here in this room was to write a song okay your job is to write a song you're being paid forget what everything else you're being paid to write a song right

這個房間裡的工作是寫一首歌。好的，你的工作是寫一首歌。你被付錢來，忘記其他一切，你被付錢來寫一首歌，對吧

now this is a song for children say for four-year-olds so the four-year-old what song do they need to hear how do you write a song for a four-year-old

現在這是一首給孩子的歌，假設給四歲的孩子。所以四歲的孩子需要聽什麼歌？你怎麼為四歲的孩子寫歌？

what are you making about any ideas unicorns sharks baby sharks that's a much better shark this is the optimum shark anything else sharks and unicorns icecream playgrounds princesses okay

你在做什麼？有任何想法嗎？獨角獸、鯊魚、小鯊魚，那是更好的鯊魚，這是最佳鯊魚。還有別的嗎？鯊魚和獨角獸、冰淇淋、遊樂場、公主，好的

lots of great things that we think about when we think about children obviously which is a great what mr. Rogers do is a really good rule in life to follow I

很多我們想到孩子時會想到的好東西，這很棒。羅傑斯先生會怎麼做是生活中很好的準則

learned everything about copywriting not everything that's an exaggeration but it makes for a good headline from mr.

我從羅傑斯先生那裡學到了關於文案寫作的一切，不是一切，那是誇張，但這會是一個好標題

Rogers this song you might know you might even know how the song came about the song begins what do you do with the mad that you feel when you feel so mad

羅傑斯這首歌你可能知道，你甚至可能知道這首歌是怎麼來的。歌是這樣開始的：當你感到生氣時，你怎麼處理那個氣，當你氣到

you could bite somebody did it may grow up with this song at all remember it vaguely yeah where do you think this came from mr. Rogers sitting around

你可以咬人。有人是聽這首歌長大的嗎？模糊地記得嗎？是的。你覺得這是從哪來的？羅傑斯先生坐在那裡

going kids love unicorns to get here probably not right this was something an actual child said to him what do you do with the mad that you feel when you feel

想著孩子喜歡獨角獸？可能不是這樣來的，對吧？這是一個真正的孩子對他說的話。當你感到生氣時，你怎麼處理那個氣，當你

so mad you could bite that's like what kids say that's what kids are thinking that is language that when a child hears it that other child gets it they get oh

氣到你可以咬人，這就是孩子會說的話。這是孩子在想的。這是當另一個孩子聽到時會懂的語言，他們會懂，哦

I've been that mad before I felt that I haven't known what to do with my mad they're not thinking of it as an adjective they're not thinking of making

我以前也那麼生氣過。我感受過那個。我不知道要怎麼處理我的氣。他們不會把它當作形容詞來想，他們不會想把它

it sound polished no one's coming in and perforating this and saying oh no that doesn't work it's got to work as like an adjective and a noun together that's how

變得精緻。沒有人會進來修改這個說，哦不，那不行。形容詞和名詞得一起用才行，那是

we need to think about writing copy to that's at least my takeaway one of many takeaways from mr. Rogers so the mr. Rogers school of songwriting goes take what your audience says make

我們需要這樣思考寫文案的方式。那至少是我從羅傑斯先生那裡得到的很多啟示之一。所以羅傑斯先生的寫歌學派是這樣：取你觀眾說的話，讓它押韻

it rhyme because you're writing a song layered over music cut you're writing a song and then you've got a song that you're ready to put on your show see how

因為你在寫歌，配上音樂，因為你在寫歌，然後你就有一首準備好放在節目上的歌。看看

kids respond to it we follow the same sort of process with copywriting we take what our audience is saying in their actual language not what we think they care about not even the summarized

孩子怎麼反應。我們文案寫作也遵循同樣的過程，我們取我們觀眾用他們實際語言說的話，不是我們認為他們在乎的，甚至不是總結版的

version of what that qualitative data showed us we take exactly what they say we push it through copywriting frameworks and formulas and applying those better practices and that's essentially where we leave it

那個質性資料給我們的東西，我們取他們確切說的話，推過文案寫作框架和公式，應用那些更好的實踐，然後基本上我們就在那裡停下

then we step back and that's the copy that you test that's the copy that least goes out there into the world to be validated in some way for example okay

然後我們退一步，那就是你測試的文案。那是至少放出去到世界上以某種方式被驗證的文案，例如，好的

so I've talked about this case study I'm not gonna give it as like a full case study but just as a couple examples of how that works so on Amazon you can go

所以我講過這個案例研究，我不會完整講這個案例研究，只是舉幾個例子說明怎麼運作。在亞馬遜上你可以去

and look at all sorts of reviews and there's actually pretty solid voice of customer data loosely turn voice the customer data at least in Amazon book reviews in all reviews out there this is

看各種評論，實際上有相當可靠的客戶之聲資料，寬鬆地說是客戶之聲資料，至少在亞馬遜的書評裡，在所有評論裡，這是

just an example so we were optimizing the home page where Rehab Center this was a couple years back and we read through six different the reviews for six different books and one of those

只是一個例子。所以我們在最佳化一個戒癮中心的首頁，這是幾年前的事，我們讀了六本不同的書的評論，其中一條

snippets in there said what I learned is if you think you need rehab you do pulled that ou applied some copywriting best practices which is like down that's

片段說：我學到的是，如果你覺得你需要戒癮，那你就需要。把這個拿出來，應用一些文案寫作最佳實踐，就是像往下，那是

good just use it and we wrote if you think you need rehab you do then our job was to validate that right before we just throw it out there we want to

好的，就用它。我們寫了：如果你覺得你需要戒癮，那你就需要。然後我們的工作是驗證它，對吧？在我們直接放出去之前，我們要

validate it and then of course experiment with it so lots of ways to validate we're not gonna get into pre experimentation validation today but one of the rules that we follow and people

驗證它，然後當然用它做實驗。所以有很多驗證的方法。我們今天不會講實驗前驗證，但我們遵循的一個規則，人們

in my workshop earlier today heard about this already is this idea of the breakthrough or bust now when you're writing copy it can be a really scary

在我今天早上的工作坊裡已經聽過了，就是這個突破或失敗的概念。當你在寫文案時，這可能是一件真的很可怕的

thing to take voice of customer data and actually like use it in its raw form just might like modified lightly by copywriting best practices our job is to

事，取客戶之聲資料並實際上用它的原始形式，只是稍微被文案寫作最佳實踐修改過。我們的工作是

ask our copy is this pushing things far enough that could either be a dramatic breakthrough or a total bust and we don't know which one that's going to be

問我們的文案：這是否把事情推得夠遠，可能是一個戲劇性的突破，或者完全失敗，我們不知道會是哪一個

if we can push things that far internally agreeing on this and then having the client agree as well like this could go either way this is different enough it's still based on

如果我們能把事情推到那麼遠，內部同意這個，然後讓客戶也同意，就像這可以走向任何一邊。這足夠不同，但它仍然基於

good data so we believe it's gonna go in a good way but it's so different that it could actually teach us something that's far different than we thought it was

好的資料，所以我們相信它會往好的方向走，但它太不同了，它實際上可以教我們一些比我們以為它會

going to teach us so the breakthrough a bust rule validation for that one if you think you need rehab you do afterward yes we understood there was a breakthrough

教我們的更不同的東西。所以突破或失敗規則，對那一條的驗證，如果你覺得你需要戒癮，那你就需要。之後是的，我們理解到有一個突破

there they had just ridiculous more clicks and more leads on the very next page as well another example this was also in my workshop earlier today - so

他們在下一頁有荒謬地更多點選和更多潛在客戶。另一個例子，這也在我今天早上的工作坊裡。所以

sweat block is a product to help people with sweating issues hyper hydrosis so they had five I think five thousand reviews on Amazon that we just poured through them all just quickly fly

止汗塊是一個幫助有流汗問題的人的產品，多汗症。所以他們在亞馬遜上有五千條，我想是五千條評論，我們就快速瀏覽

through them eliminate the ones and the fives and this looks at the two three and four stars and we saw things like I sweat all the time it doesn't even have

它們，排除一星和五星的，看二三四星的，我們看到像這樣的話：我一直在流汗，甚至不需要

to be hot out I'm sweating even when my AC is on okay so we take ideas like that the actual copy put it through copy writing better practices here like

很熱，我開著冷氣還在流汗。好的，所以我們取這樣的想法，實際的文案，推過文案寫作更好的實踐，像

first-person headlines go in quotation marks that's something that copywriters do a lot myself included and leading with a really strong problem like something people are really likely to

第一人稱標題用引號括起來，這是很多文案師會做的事，包括我，然後用一個真的強烈的問題開頭，像是人們真的可能

feel when they land on the page that brought us to this headline it doesn't even have to be hot out my armpits are always wet that became the headline

在登陸頁面時會感受到的東西，這讓我們有了這個標題：甚至不需要很熱，我的腋下總是濕的。那變成了標題

based on voice of customer data was just a little bit of tweaking there to apply those copywriting better practices and that also led to it was validated as a breakthrough with almost fifty percent

基於客戶之聲資料，只是稍微調整一下來應用那些文案寫作更好的實踐。那也導致它被驗證為突破，付費轉換增加了將近百分之五十

increase in paid conversions okay so we're doing this stuff all the time we're testing it across the board I'm not gonna get into case studies throughout this but we're doing we're

好的，所以我們一直在做這件事。我們在各個地方測試它。我不會講完整個案例研究，但我們在做，我們在

applying this all over the place with all of our clients and for our own business as well this what follows here is not a bunch of case studies this is

把這個應用在我們所有的客戶和我們自己的業務上。接下來不是一堆案例研究，這是

actually how now that you know that this can work and hopefully if you don't believe it suspend some disbelief there for a while and at least put this into

現在你知道這可以奏效，如果你不相信的話，希望你暫時放下懷疑，至少把這個付諸

practice and see how it goes this is about how we actually go and find those messages so what are we doing how do you know what to pull out cool obvious

實踐，看看效果如何。這是關於我們實際上怎麼去找到那些訊息。所以我們在做什麼？你怎麼知道要提取什麼？很酷，顯然

really great ones that we go to when it comes to like the initial part where we're doing the research to just collect the voice of customer data in the first

當我們做研究只是收集客戶之聲資料的初始部分時，我們會去的真的很棒的來源

place interviewing customers doing all of those surveys everything else was talking about on-site polls competitor audits might feel not like voice of customer but we can discuss and then

是訪談客戶、做所有那些調查、現場投票、競爭對手審計可能感覺不像客戶之聲，但我們可以討論，然後

follow me homes and things like that that's great that's obvious that's good what do copywriters look for I'm not somebody who's a market researcher I'm a conversion copywriter when I'm surveying

跟著回家之類的。那很棒，那是顯而易見的，那是好的。文案師在找什麼？我不是市場研究員，我是轉換文案師。當我在調查時

what I'm listening I'm doing it for the purposes of better understanding my prospects so I can push that message back at them so I add love to add interviewing the founders who are

當我在聽的時候，我這樣做是為了更好地理解我的潛在客戶，這樣我可以把那個訊息推回給他們。所以我喜歡加上訪談創辦人，他們

actually the original customers when you think about it so if you work I work with tech startups primarily if you can talk to the founders it can be very

實際上是最初的客戶，如果你想一想的話。所以如果你工作，我主要與科技新創公司合作，如果你能跟創辦人談，可能會非常

eye-opening about that initial itch that they had to scratch and that's like the first customer where their pain was so strong that they decided I have to build

大開眼界，關於他們必須解決的最初的癢，那就像第一個客戶，他們的痛苦強烈到他們決定我必須

something for this so we love talking to them Thank You page a confirmation page surveys as well user testing comm I really love for listening through the problems and objections that people have

為此建造一些東西。所以我們喜歡跟他們談。感謝頁面、確認頁面調查也是，我真的很喜歡usertesting.com來聽人們的問題和反對意見

as their list like as they're going through the details of the product mining sales call recordings I'm gonna get into this pretty deeply here today and mining support tickets Facebook

當他們列出，當他們在看產品細節時。挖掘銷售電話錄音，我今天會深入講這個，還有挖掘客服工單、Facebook

comments and online review mining as well there are some that I will not live without and can't do a project without interviewing customers got to do it can't live without it can't write copy

評論和線上評論挖掘也是。有一些我離開不了的，沒有它們我不能做專案。訪談客戶，必須做，離開不了它，沒有它不能寫文案

without it interviewing the founders Thank You page surveys user testing calm as problematic as it's can sometimes be and variations of that mining those sales call recordings and online review

。訪談創辦人、感謝頁面調查、usertesting.com，雖然有時候會有問題還有它的變體、挖掘那些銷售電話錄音和線上評論

mining so we're gonna dig into three of these and how exactly we took what we heard and applied it in copy so you'll know what to look for to yeah but I just

挖掘。所以我們要深入三個，以及我們確切地怎麼取我們聽到的東西並應用在文案裡，這樣你就知道要找什麼。是的，但我只是

want to be clear before we dive into that whenever just looking at one thing we're going to show you one like oh here we did a sales call we listened to a

想在我們深入之前說清楚，每當只看一件事的時候，我們會給你看一個，像是哦，我們做了一個銷售電話，我們聽了一個

sales call and then we did this but we're trying gleaning all the time so don't worry that it's like oh you only heard that once and then you turn it

銷售電話，然後我們做了這個。但我們一直在收集，所以不要擔心，好像你只聽到那個一次，然後你就把它

into copy we're listening and listening and listening and listening that's our whole job is listen take what we hear put it on the page first one okay first

變成文案。我們一直在聽聽聽聽，那是我們整個工作，聽，取我們聽到的，放到頁面上。第一個，好的，第一個

thing that we use when we want to find the story and a story can be a really big part of actually like optimizing an entire experience it's like what's that

我們用來找故事的東西，故事可以是實際上像是最佳化整個體驗的真的重要部分，就像那是什麼

why the value proposition and the big idea so copywriters know that they're looking for a big idea and that's often tied we're like to the value proposition at the brand or

為什麼，價值主張和大創意。所以文案師知道他們在找大創意，那通常與我們喜歡的，價值主張在品牌或

the product or whatever level that is we use interviews for that purpose when I know that I need to figure out the story I'm definitely going to talk to the

產品或任何層級上連結。我們為那個目的使用訪談，當我知道我需要弄清楚故事時，我肯定會跟

founder and when I want to get down to the value proposition again I want to talk to the founder a lot of the time so founder interviews are very good to do

創辦人談，當我想確定價值主張時，我也想跟創辦人談。很多時候，所以創辦人訪談非常值得做

follow everything else said obviously about interviews here's how we do them if it's helpful to you we have the interview on zoom' always on video we're all remote so I almost never see my

跟著Els說的關於訪談的一切。這是我們怎麼做的，如果對你有幫助的話。我們在Zoom上做訪談，總是用視訊。我們都是遠端的，所以我幾乎從來不

clients in person sometimes I do try to avoid that keeping just like staying in our little houses so we have the interview on the zoom on video so you

親自見我的客戶，有時候我會，盡量避免那樣，就像待在我們的小房子裡。所以我們在Zoom上做訪談，用視訊，這樣你

can see their faces right and they can see yours and you can establish that trust take directional notes during it but definitely don't take notes hard throughout record the call with

可以看到他們的臉，他們也可以看到你的臉，你可以建立信任。做方向性筆記，但絕對不要全程做詳細筆記。在獲得許可後錄製通話

permission of course so that you can then go and get that to transcribed we use Reb comm to transcribe it we spent a lot of money on Rev I actually feel like

這樣你就可以讓它被轉錄。我們用Rev.com來轉錄。我們在Rev上花了很多錢。我實際上覺得

I should get like a mug or something at least scent from them we spend so much money with them and then you want to print out sadly for the trees but you

他們至少應該寄給我一個馬克杯什麼的，我們在他們那裡花那麼多錢。然後你要列印出來，為了樹木很抱歉，但你

want to print out and read the transcript with a highlighter and when you're doing that you might pick up things in the call itself that you'll jot down as you're like going through

要列印出來用螢光筆讀逐字稿，當你這樣做的時候，你可能會在通話本身中發現一些東西，當你像是在看的時候會記下來

and having that first interview but when you go through and read through the transcript with founders it can be extraordinarily eye-opening so you're this is an example I was working I'm

然後做第一次訪談，但當你看完並讀完創辦人的逐字稿時，可能會非常大開眼界。所以你的，這是一個例子，我正在工作，我

still working with a company called get prime you prime is series a tech company that's essentially Google Analytics for engineers cuz I was talking to the founder who was an engineer and he

仍然在與一家叫Get Prime的公司合作，You Prime是一家A輪科技公司，基本上是給工程師的Google Analytics，因為我在跟創辦人談，他是工程師，他

wasn't able to like talk about how to measure his own team he didn't really know how to measure his own team so he went and he built the solution which

不能像是談論如何衡量自己的團隊，他真的不知道怎麼衡量自己的團隊，所以他去建造瞭解決方案，它

connects to github in the interview Travis said I always start with the assumption sorry for the blue color I think blue language someone said earlier in my workshop and I was like oh that's

連線到GitHub。在訪談中Travis說，我總是從這個假設開始，對不起用了藍色語言，有人在我的工作坊說藍色語言，我就想哦，那是

a neat way to put it that was it's a quote so it's not me swearing I always start with this assumption that most engineers love building ship okay that's

一個很好的說法。那是一句引言所以不是我在說髒話。我總是從這個假設開始，大多數工程師喜歡建造東西。好的，那是

to doubt that was different that sound a little different first for many reasons but it was like a different and kind of like and insistently you had to listen

懷疑是不同的，那聽起來有點不同，首先有很多原因，但它像是不同的，有點像是堅持，你得聽

to him say that it wasn't a soft message you wouldn't sit around the boardroom talking this way up around the boardroom table thinking this way as you were

他說那個。那不是一個軟綿綿的訊息。你不會坐在會議室裡這樣討論，不會在會議室桌旁這樣想，當你在

coming up with messages so I pulled this out put this through our process right or like really straightforward take a voice of the customer apply things because I was looking for the value

想訊息的時候。所以我把這個拿出來，推過我們的流程，對吧，或者像是真的很直接地取客戶之聲，應用東西，因為我在找價值

proposition in this case so what makes a good value prop does it make you want to believe or suspend disbelief will it make will it feel unique and highly

主張，在這個案例中。所以什麼是好的價值主張？它讓你想相信或暫停懷疑嗎？它會讓它感覺獨特且高度

desirable and is it memorable okay so take that push it through that essentially those filters and then what came out on the other end was engineers build business our job then becomes to

吸引人嗎？它容易記住嗎？好的，所以取那個，推過那個，基本上那些過濾器，然後另一端出來的是：工程師建造事業。我們的工作然後變成

validate that okay engineers build because they love building cool stuff and we couldn't see what he said so we just took that and then put business in there instead we validated it with

驗證那個。好的，工程師建造，因為他們喜歡建造酷的東西，我們不能用他說的話，所以我們就取那個，然後把事業放進去。我們用

breakthrough robust as well as with other ways that your client will be validating things internally so we knew we had to solve for four groups would engineer's build business solve for all

突破穩健來驗證它，以及你的客戶內部會驗證東西的其他方式。所以我們知道我們必須解決四個群體，工程師建造事業會解決所有

four of those and because we're incest we have pirate metrics to worry about so what it solved for acquisition activation and all of those and would it at least carry through the whole way

四個嗎？因為我們在SaaS裡，我們有海盜指標要擔心，所以它解決了獲取、啟動和所有那些，它會至少貫穿整個過程嗎

through and we stack that up against other value props that we also developed and this is the only one that hit all five marks cool we presented it to the

？我們把那個與我們也開發的其他價值主張對照，這是唯一一個達到所有五個標記的。很酷，我們把它展示給

client and of course then they ended up loving it and it's now their homepage headlined their Facebook obviously and then they're putting it all over billboards throughout Silicon Valley so

客戶，當然他們最後愛上它，現在它是他們的首頁標題，顯然是他們的Facebook，然後他們把它放在矽穀的廣告牌上

that's how we got to that point listen to what that person that one founder says and just pay attention to the things they say I didn't have to do any

這就是我們怎麼達到那個點的。聽那個人，那一個創辦人說的話，只是注意他們說的東西。我不需要做任何

work in there other than listening and paying attention then applying really really really basic copywriting principles to turn it into what was next number two sales calls who uses sales

工作，除了聽和注意，然後應用真的真的真的基本的文案寫作原則來把它變成接下來的東西。第二，銷售電話。誰使用銷售

calls who does like recorded sales calls some of us they're amazing they're like so underrated but we use them for plotting sequences for emails in particular so if

電話？誰做像是錄製的銷售電話？我們一些人。它們太棒了。它們像是被低估了，但我們用它們來規劃電子郵件序列

you use it if you work in funnel optimization we use them for that for messaging hierarchies and we can also pull a lot of like sticky language out of there to

特別是。如果你使用它，如果你做漏鬥最佳化，我們用它們來規劃訊息層級，我們也可以從中拉出很多像是黏著的語言來

use in the copy itself but what's really important here is that sales calls typically follow a similar process that is sometimes driven by the person who's

用在文案本身。但這裡真的重要的是，銷售電話通常遵循一個類似的過程，有時候是由那個

like the rep or by the client when they decide to kind of take over because they have a lot of questions so you can watch all of these sales calls and start to

像是業務代表驅動，或者由客戶驅動，當他們決定接手因為他們有很多問題。所以你可以看所有這些銷售電話，開始

see patterns across them like oh here's the flow of things because the real question that I have for you is when it comes down to it and you're optimizing

看到它們之間的模式，像是哦，這是事情的流程。因為我對你的真正問題是，當說到底你在最佳化

let's say a funnel how do you know how to plot that funnel how do you know what goes in what order how do you know when

比如說一個漏鬥，你怎麼知道怎麼規劃那個漏鬥？你怎麼知道什麼按什麼順序放？你怎麼知道什麼時候

to say X versus when to say Y I'm not talking about when to offer an incentive which to you might be like oh yeah we'll do that way down funnel when you're at

說X對什麼時候說Y？我不是在說什麼時候提供誘因，你可能會想，哦是的，我們會在漏鬥很後面的時候做那個。當你在

the beginning of a funnel in the middle of a funnel or at the end of a funnel and you've got emails to write and landing pages to write in there how do

漏鬥的開始、中間或末端，你有電子郵件要寫，有登陸頁面要寫，你怎麼

you know what to put in them I feel like that's not my job then you're like super lucky but if the rest of us it's our job

知道要放什麼進去？我覺得那不是我的工作，那你超幸運，但對我們其他人，那是我們的工作

so how do you actually plot that funnel what message comes first what comes second consistently how will you know other than just plain guessing the way to know

那你實際上怎麼規劃那個漏鬥？什麼訊息先來？什麼其次？一直這樣，你怎麼知道，除了純粹猜測？知道的方法

is to listen to sales call after sales call after sales call this is never time poorly spent this is time extraordinarily well spent even if it's hours and hours and hours because by the

是聽銷售電話，一個接一個接一個。這從來不是浪費的時間。這是極其值得的時間，即使是幾個小時又幾個小時，因為在

end of it you will have incredible insights into the actual flow of the way your prospect is thinking when they are considering working with you and choosing your solution so we go through

結束的時候，你會對你的潛在客戶思考的實際流程有難以置信的洞見，當他們在考慮跟你合作和選擇你的解決方案時。所以我們經歷

this I recommend that you do use something like chorus AI or record calls on zoom' whatever that is you want to see the faces the expressions of the

這個。我建議你確實使用像是Chorus AI或在Zoom上錄製通話之類的東西，不管那是什麼，你要看到那些

people who are having the product demoed to them that's huge because you will notice a lot of them will get distracted on their phones and you know what's happening it's really important to know

被展示產品的人的臉和表情，那很重要，因為你會注意到很多人會在手機上分心，你知道發生什麼事。知道這個真的很重要

that because you can say okay that point bored them they didn't care about that either we need to not include it or rephrase it moving up you want to skip

因為你可以說，好的，那一點讓他們無聊了，他們不在乎那個，要麼我們不要包括它，要麼換個說法往上移。你要跳到

to the parts in course dot a eye where the prospect is talking you can kind of that here there's two colored lines and the green one which some people at close

在Chorus AI裡潛在客戶在說話的部分，你可以有點，這裡有兩條有顏色的線，綠色的那條，近的人可以看到

can see that's where the rep is talking and the purple like dots they're a recent customer the client is talking so you can zoom forward to those moments

那是業務代表在說話，紫色的像是點，他們是最近的客戶，客戶在說話。所以你可以快進到那些時刻

you can also get a good sense for whether that's going to be a good sales call or not because the rep was doing all the talking but you can really

你也可以很好地感覺那是否會是一個好的銷售電話，因為業務代表做了所有的談話。但你真的可以

quickly get into those moments and listen just to those moments - you'll probably find yourself backing up but it can help you move through those sales calls more quickly if time is a thing

快速進入那些時刻，只聽那些時刻。你可能會發現自己要倒帶，但它可以幫助你更快地看完那些銷售電話，如果時間是個問題

when you're making notes here this is how I do it right I want to share with you how I do it it works repeatedly for

當你做筆記的時候，這是我怎麼做的，對吧？我想分享我怎麼做的。這一直對我有效

me if you have your own way cool if you don't just do it this way you're listening you're watching the call and you've got like your notepad handy and

如果你有自己的方式，很酷，如果你沒有，就這樣做。你在聽，你在看通話，你有像是筆記本在手邊

this is like actually notes in Apple for me in my macbook notes to self as I'm watching this become all caps so I will go back and pay attention to them and

這實際上就是我Mac上的Apple筆記。當我在看的時候，給自己的筆記變成全部大寫，這樣我會回去注意它們

then interesting language that the customer uses goes in quotation marks just do that you'll be pausing a lot you might already be doing this when you're doing like a user testing comm when

然後客戶用的有趣語言用引號括起來。就這樣做，你會暫停很多次。你可能在做usertesting.com的時候已經在這樣做了，當

you're watching those videos you're doing a lot of pausing and noting things this is how I do and I find it very useful but what are you watching for so

你在看那些影片的時候，你做很多暫停和記筆記，這是我怎麼做的，我發現它非常有用。但你在注意什麼？所以

it's one thing to just say like oh cool I'm getting the flow of this I get how people are talking what are you really trying to find when you're doing this

說像是哦很酷，我得到這個的流程是一回事，我得到人們怎麼說話，但當你這樣做的時候你真的在試著找什麼

what I recommend is you watch for I call documentary-style moments so these are the moments that are so vivid you could actually see them if you took it all out

我建議的是你注意我稱之為紀錄片風格的時刻。所以這些是非常生動的時刻，你實際上可以看到，如果你把它全部拿出

of context if you gave that language that you read in the transcript or that you note down when you're actually doing the sales call like when you're

脈絡，如果你把你在逐字稿裡讀到的或當你實際上在做銷售電話時記下的語言，像是當你在

reviewing it if you gave it to somebody could they act it out if you gave them that could they act it out and that's a really good moment that's something that

審查它的時候，如果你把它給某個人，他們能演出來嗎？如果你給他們那個，他們能演出來嗎？那就是一個真的好的時刻，那是一些

you can't come up with in a boardroom and it's going to work really well when you put it on the page so here is one

你在會議室裡想不出來的，當你把它放在頁面上會非常有效。所以這是

soup it of some of the notes that I took I'm gonna pull out one example of that documentary style moment the client says oh I didn't realize Martin was spending

我做的一些筆記的集合。我要拿出一個紀錄片風格時刻的例子。客戶說哦，我不知道Martin花了

three quarters of his time continually reworking every line of code every time this particular requirement changes this is us just getting into their heads right like what's going on what matters to them what

四分之三的時間持續重寫每一行程式碼，每次這個特定需求變更時。這就是我們進入他們腦子的方式，對吧，像是發生什麼事，對他們來說什麼重要，什麼

they paid paying attention - and where can I go from this moment so it's a really strong moment that can bring your copy to life in ways that almost no

他們在注意，我可以從這個時刻往哪裡走。所以這是一個真的強的時刻，可以讓你的文案活起來，以幾乎沒有

marketing copy is doing today almost no marketing copy would ever get this specific for all sorts of reasons that we tell ourselves that are kind of crazy

行銷文案今天在做的方式。幾乎沒有行銷文案會這麼具體，因為我們告訴自己各種有點瘋狂的理由

you also want to watch for phrases like I'm worried about and can you show me those will come up a lot if this were really really good for when it's time

你也要注意像是「我擔心」和「你能給我看」這樣的短語。那些會經常出現，如果這個真的真的適合，當是時候

for you to actually write copy so there are a few of those in here I won't read this all but know that there's a lot there and when you go back over these

讓你實際寫文案的時候。所以這裡有一些，我不會全部讀，但知道那裡有很多，當你回頭看這些

moments afterward and you have to write a section about on your page about like overcoming objections you'll actually know okay this person is worried about the overhead the overhead and the upkeep

時刻之後，你必須在頁面上寫一個關於克服反對意見的部分，你實際上會知道，好的，這個人擔心開銷，開銷和維護

okay cool I now know at least two objections that someone has tell me more about that I didn't even have to because it's all in here where does the data

好的，很酷，我現在至少知道兩個人有的反對意見。告訴我更多那個，我甚至不需要，因為全都在這裡。資料從哪來

come from that get prime reports on cool I know that's question now how much attention or my guy is gonna have to focus on this or the inputs intuitive do

，Get Prime報告的資料，很酷，我知道那是現在的問題。我的人需要多少注意力才能專注於這個，或者輸入直觀嗎

they make sense is it gonna be a real drag this is all stuff that this person was just rattling through on the sales call and when you're watching it and

它們有意義嗎？這會是一個真的麻煩嗎？這是這個人在銷售電話中碎碎唸的所有東西，當你在看它時

you're paying attention to it you can also get the emotion out of it - which is why sales calls are so amazing another one if it's too abstract too cumbersome too difficult and

你在注意它，你也可以從中得到情緒，這就是為什麼銷售電話這麼棒。另一個，如果它太抽象、太麻煩、太困難、

intricate for the guys to get trained up on it if it ends up being a data burden I would definitely not want to use it so

太複雜，讓那些人接受培訓，如果最後變成資料負擔，我絕對不想用它。所以

what do I have to do now I have to make sure that it doesn't sound too abstract it doesn't sound too cumbersome it doesn't sound too difficult and it

現在我要做什麼？我必須確保它聽起來不會太抽象、不會太麻煩、不會太困難、

doesn't sound too intricate and I have to know that my prospect is actually thinking it's gonna be all of those things so my job now is just to keep

不會太複雜，我必須知道我的潛在客戶實際上在想它會是所有那些東西。所以我的工作現在只是繼續

listening to how I can actually pull away from him thinking that and this comes out of notes after notes notes lots and lots of notes please never feel like you've spent too much time

聽我怎麼能實際上把他從那個想法拉開。這是從筆記之後筆記之後筆記，很多很多筆記。請永遠不要覺得你花了太多時間

listening to a sales call keep listening more and more tag as l's said take what you find so you can actually use it in your copy so if you hear something that

聽銷售電話。繼續聽越來越多，像Els說的標記，標記你發現的東西，這樣你實際上可以在文案中使用它。所以如果你聽到什麼

is an objection take it as an objection late-stage desirable outcome moment of highest tension whatever that thing is as you're listening to it you'll start to see trends and you'll wish that you

是一個反對意見，就把它當反對意見標記。後期渴望的結果、最高張力的時刻、不管那個東西是什麼，當你在聽的時候你會開始看到趨勢，你會希望你

had tagged things earlier and you just want to go back and retag those spend that time to do it it'll be okay so for this I listen to dozens of

早點標記了東西，你只想回去重新標記那些。花時間去做，會沒事的。所以對於這個，我聽了幾十個

you know nearly one hour sales calls it took hundreds of sorry thousands of words of notes then I took everything from those calls when I was trying to

你知道的，將近一小時的銷售電話。花了好幾百，對不起，好幾千字的筆記。然後我取了那些電話中的所有東西，當我試著

plot this sequence I overlaid the flow of each conversation to find these patterns which led to this funnel and then I used common conversation flows to actually shape that funnel so I'm gonna

規劃這個序列時，我疊加了每個對話的流程來找這些模式，這導致了這個漏鬥，然後我用常見的對話流程來實際塑造那個漏鬥。所以我要

move through these parts fast but this ended up being that the funnel the funnel that came out of just listening to sales calls and I knew what to put

快速過這些部分，但這最後變成漏鬥，從只是聽銷售電話出來的漏鬥，我知道要放什麼

inside each of these emails simply because I listened to the flow of so many different conversations and now I had the patterns to follow pretty straightforward side note for early

在這些電子郵件的每一封裡面，只是因為我聽了這麼多不同對話的流程，現在我有模式可以遵循。相當直接。早期

awareness people it's often gonna be a combination of like these desirable outcomes sharp pains and points of confusion that would come up a lot on sales calls so those are just like quick

認知的人，通常會是這些渴望的結果、尖銳的痛點和混淆點的組合，那些會在銷售電話中經常出現，所以那些只是快速

tags for you to have anyway so we pushed this through this one idea when we're in stand-ups an engineer's been stuck for weeks but thought he could figure it out

給你的標籤。所以我們推過這個，這一個想法：當我們在站會中，一個工程師被卡住好幾週，但以為他可以自己想出來

on his own and now we're late so he finally brings it up that was a voice of customer data point pushed through a framework turned into a full email this

現在我們遲到了，所以他終於提出來了。那是一個客戶之聲資料點，推過一個框架，變成一封完整的電子郵件。這

is the email that came out and I'm just gonna show you exactly how it matches up it's time well-spent even though I'm looking at the timer okay so voice of

就是出來的電子郵件，我只是要給你看它確切怎麼對應。時間花得值得，即使我在看計時器。好的，所以客戶之聲

customer actual data when someone commits a thousand lines right before the weekend when no one will prioritize reviewing it and it dies on the vine that exact language appears wait right

實際資料，當有人在週末前提交一千行程式碼，沒有人會優先審查它，它就在藤上死掉了。那個確切的語言出現在等等，就在

down here someone on your team commits 300 plus lines of code all at once and is dying on the vine so the customer is writing our copy for us when it's hard

這裡。你團隊裡有人一次提交超過300行程式碼，它在藤上死掉了。所以客戶在為我們寫文案。當很難

to know who the bottleneck is and that came in context the who the bottleneck is you aren't sure of water who's causing the bottleneck and what's going

知道誰是瓶頸，那是在脈絡中出現的，誰是瓶頸，你不確定誰造成瓶頸，什麼在

on under the hood came up tons invoice of customer data see what's going on to the hood of your engineering team and that's just enough that's all I can show

底層進行，在客戶之聲資料中出現很多次。看看你的工程團隊底層在進行什麼，那就夠了。那是我能在這張投影片上展示的全部

you in this slide the rest of it also comes from voice of customer data your job is just to listen and push that language right back at them because

。其他的也是從客戶之聲資料來的。你的工作就是聽，然後把那個語言推回給他們，因為

you're it's not about you it's not about your writing skills ending off on this one Thank You page surveys so ELLs already talked about this we I love

它不是關於你。不是關於你的寫作技巧。最後以這一個結束，感謝頁面調查。Els已經講過這個。我愛

Thank You page surveys there is not a single client that we'll work with or have worked with in the last three years that I haven't done

感謝頁面調查。過去三年沒有一個客戶我沒有做過

a Thank You page survey with we did this immediately after a customer purchased coffee school 2018 that's our product we asked him or her this one question

感謝頁面調查。我們在客戶購買Coffee School 2018後立即做這個，那是我們的產品。我們問他或她這一個問題

embedded on the page like L said what was going on in your life that brought you to join coffee school today this is a question the back phrasing I came up

嵌入在頁面上，像Els說的：是什麼讓你今天來加入Coffee School？這是一個問題，背後的措辭是我想出來的

with up and I was that conversion rate experts well what's going on in your life that brought you to Blank today again as else said it's like directly

當時我在Conversion Rate Experts。是什麼讓你今天來到___？像Els說的，它是直接

tied it just happened so it's a really good time to ask people this and they will answer this question it's a very seducible moment they just said yes to

連結的，剛發生，所以這是一個很好的時機問人們這個，他們會回答這個問題。這是一個非常容易說服的時刻，他們剛對你說是

you they like you so we get lots and lots of answers to this we're able to take what they're telling us and use it to write and optimize our emails for

他們喜歡你。所以我們得到很多很多這個的答案。我們能夠取他們告訴我們的，用它來寫和最佳化我們的電子郵件

this particular campaign we're talking to copywriters so they somehow like exploring language when they're answering so one said groping in the dark of uneducated purgatory destined to

這個特定的活動。我們在跟文案師說話，所以他們在回答時莫名喜歡探索語言，所以有人說：在沒受過教育的煉獄黑暗中摸索，命中註定

be chained to low wages and toxic work environments yet unwilling to surrender to the perils of loserdom others we're slightly more helpful with what they said that was nice and entertaining

被鏈在低工資和有毒工作環境上，卻不願意向失敗者的危險投降。其他人用他們說的話稍微更有幫助一點，那很好又有趣

I really like the break in the middle of the day but others said the same kinds of words again and again synonyms for confidence we saw confidence show up so many times

我真的很喜歡一天中間的休息。但其他人一次又一次說了同樣種類的詞，自信的同義詞。我們看到自信出現很多次

we're like okay that has to go in our sales emails it was not in our sales emails prior to that so he pushed confidence in there we added a whole

我們就想好，那必須放進我們的銷售郵件裡。之前不在我們的銷售郵件裡。所以我們把自信推進去，我們加了一整個

section on our very last day and this was like our biggest at the time it was our biggest launch ever and this is that section that gets into confidence just

部分在我們的最後一天，這是像是我們當時最大的發布，這是那個進入自信的部分。只是

zooming in on it you can see confident confident confident confident you can't use the word too much if it's a word your prospect gives you to use you can't

放大一下，你可以看到自信自信自信自信。如果是你的潛在客戶給你用的詞，你用不過度

over use it honestly so listen to what they have to say and use what they say that brings us just in time to the end of what I wanted to share with you today

老實說不會用過度。所以聽他們要說什麼，用他們說的話。這帶我們剛好在我想今天跟你分享的結尾

but the real takeaway I hope that you have is that of course as we say all the time this test worthy copy is not sitting inside your head it's in what

但我希望你的真正收穫是，當然像我們一直說的，值得測試的文案不是坐在你的腦子裡，它在

your customers are already thinking and what they're feeling and they're telling it to us all over the place all we have to do is listen repeat it back to them learn a couple copy

你的客戶已經在想的和他們在感受的。他們到處在告訴我們。我們要做的就是聽，重複給他們，學幾個文案

running techniques and then get out of the way just get out of the way take what they said and test it and final validation if you're really ambitious

技巧，然後閃開。就閃開。取他們說的，測試它，最終驗證，如果你真的有野心

will it be a breakthrough or will it be a total terrifying bust when you can answer that question with like yup then you're in good hands cool thank you um

它會是一個突破還是會是一個完全可怕的失敗？當你能用像是「是的」來回答那個問題，那你就在好的手裡了。很酷，謝謝。嗯

so we're gonna have time for two questions let's start from the top voted one how do you balance Joanna conversion copywriting with SEO copywriting I focus on conversions but

所以我們有時間回答兩個問題。讓我們從投票最高的開始。你怎麼平衡Joanna，轉換文案和SEO文案？我專注於轉換，但

the SEO team member wants to take copy to have an SEO as the primary goal can someone else up boat quickly so I don't have to answer that one like down boat

SEO團隊成員想要用文案，把SEO作為主要目標。有人能快速投票讓我不用回答那個嗎？像是投反對票

that um about anything else okay so that's like the hardest question for me I don't prioritize SEO and I know that the gentleman from distilled will be

那個，嗯關於其他什麼的。好的，那是我最難的問題。我不優先考慮SEO，我知道Distilled的那位先生會

talking about this on Friday so I think I'm gonna be like that's gonna be really amazing um back at the back right for me I think if you have to choose one which

在週五講這個，所以我想我會是像是，那會真的很棒。嗯，後面右邊。對我來說我想如果你必須選一個，

we traditionally have had to choose because you can't have both you put it doesn't mean that's true anymore and again I'm gonna learn more about that for us there's lots of ways to get

我們傳統上必須選擇，因為你不能兩個都有。你放，這不意味著那現在還是真的，我會學到更多關於那個的。對我們來說有很多方法可以得到

traffic to your site there's lots of ways to get traffic to your sales pages and things like that once they're there there's not many more ways to convert

流量到你的網站。有很多方法可以得到流量到你的銷售頁面和那些東西。一旦他們在那裡，沒有更多的方法可以轉換

them than with your words so I would prioritize conversion over SEO every day okay good answer so then what are the best resources out there to improve a copywriters writing

他們，除了用你的文字。所以我會每天把轉換優先於SEO。好的，很好的回答。那麼，有什麼最好的資源可以提升文案師的寫作

abilities any best practices you can share that was my talk no I'm just kidding um so Momoko does a really great moment called price does a fantastic

能力？你能分享任何最佳實踐嗎？那是我的演講。不是，我開玩笑。嗯，所以Momoko做了一個真的很棒的，叫price做了一個很棒的

talk for cxl institute so check that out if you're not already a member we have our own copy hackers is filled with tutorials that are free and blog posts

CXL學院的演講。如果你還不是會員，去看看。我們自己的Copy Hackers充滿了免費的教程和部落格文章

that are free and of course we have copy school as well for those but the best practices are really the number one thing to think about is just using frameworks and formula

。當然我們也有Copy School給那些人。但最佳實踐真的是，首先要想的是隻用框架和公式

and getting out of the way nobody cares about your writing skills your writing skills are the least important thing me have an English major background is the

然後閃開。沒有人在乎你的寫作技巧。你的寫作技巧是最不重要的東西。我有英文系背景是

worst part of my history like it's not helping at all just listen and then use those frameworks at your disposal all right thank you so much feel free to DM her with your questions

我歷史中最糟糕的部分，像是完全沒有幫助。就聽，然後用那些你可以使用的框架。好的，非常感謝。如果有問題可以私訊她

later

好的，這就是今天的全部內容。再見！