nobody wants a demo they might want to see the product they might want to have their questions answered they might want to say hey my team is wondering about this exact thing

沒有人真的想要一個演示。他們可能想看產品，可能想讓問題得到解答，可能想說，嘿，我的團隊正好在想這個問題。

show me how you do that in your tool how will we do that in your tool I'm my CFO is annoyed with how difficult invoicing is with these like we can never get an

告訴我你的工具怎麼做到這個，我們用你的工具怎麼做。我的財務長對發票流程很煩惱，用這些工具我們永遠無法

invoice out of our software show me that so we know going in okay people come to a demo not for a demo they want to see certain things why don't you give them a

從軟體中開出發票，給我看那個。所以我們要明白，人們來看演示不是為了演示本身，他們想看特定的東西，為什麼不給他們

list of the things that they'll see and then the things that they're worried about foreign hey Joanna welcome to the show hello thanks for having me Tess good stuff so you are the original

一個他們會看到的東西清單，然後是他們擔心的問題。嘿Joanna，歡迎來到節目。你好，謝謝邀請我，Tess。那你是原創的

conversion copywriter and founder of copy hackers that's quite a big statement the original copywriter OG conversion copywriter OG what is your what is your backstory yeah so I was calling it conversion

轉化文案專家和Copy Hackers的創辦人，這是一個很大的聲明，原創文案專家，OG轉化文案。你的背景故事是什麼？是的，所以我當時稱它為轉化

focused copywriting and then I got lazy and just called it conversion copywriting and then someone I was gonna go talk at an event and they were like

導向的文案寫作，然後我懶了，就叫它轉化文案，然後有人請我去一個活動演講，他們說

we need your bio and I was like oh so I just told myself the original conversion copywriter Joanna weave blah blah blah um so that's where that comes from but

你是轉化文案專家嗎？我說，是的，他們說，你是OG嗎？我說，我想是的。

the whole idea of conversion copywriting comes from you know me stumbling through what copywriting even is in my first years as a copywriter uh brand new to marketing brand new to everything I had

所以這就是它的來源。我大約在2004年開始做這個，當時沒有人在做這個，至少沒有人這樣稱呼它。

just dropped out of law school and was like I don't know what I'm gonna do with my life and I had like a creative writing stuff that I did in undergrad

我是一名直效文案，就是你看到的所有那些長銷售信，現在人們會說，天哪，這麼長誰會讀？

and so you know you're like okay well maybe uh and so anyway I would got hired as a creative writer which really meant copywriter at an agency and I didn't know what it meant

但那就是當時的情況。然後隨著時間的推移，數據變得更容易獲取，我們可以測試東西。

um so it was just like fiddled with words make things sound good and then I got hired to do to be a senior copywriter over at a big tech company

我就像，好吧，我們實際上可以測量文案是否有效，這就是轉化文案的起源。

and that was like that was Intuit and um I learned that it's a real thing copywriting isn't just throwing words down and making stuff sound good because once you start

太棒了。所以今天我們要談論SaaS著陸頁。這是一個很大的話題。

measuring it then you realize oh man which of course every tech company not every a lot of tech companies definitely aim to measure things and the group that

是的，非常大。這是很多人掙紮的地方。他們不知道該放什麼內容，如何組織它，如何讓人們採取行動。

I was in add into it definitely aimed to measure things so I went from working at an agency where I was just like you know making a brand sound fun to writing a

那讓我們從基礎開始。一個好的SaaS著陸頁應該有什麼要素？

landing page and the email that drove to it to get people who were on one merchant service provider to switch over to intuits merchant service provider um and then having them measured and

好的，首先，你需要一個清晰的價值主張。訪客需要在幾秒鐘內理解你提供什麼。

like if you perform well you get a better bonus so like all of these incentives um and that's when I started to go like oh okay so copywriting isn't just

這通常是你的標題和副標題。它需要清楚、具體，並且與你的目標受眾相關。

wordsmithing what is it then so it's supposed to get people to buy isn't that what sales people do am I in sales um and then I was like that's kind of

你能給我們一個例子嗎？

cool because all the people I know in sales I have one like so I haven't actually met a skeezy car sales person I know that's like a thing but I haven't

當然。假設你有一個專案管理工具。不要說「更好的專案管理」，你可以說「在一半的時間內完成專案，沒有混亂」。

met um I've only actually met really well off nice car sales people I was like I could do that um and then I started to see this other world of direct response copywriting

這更具體，它說明了好處，人們可以想像這對他們意味著什麼。

which everybody's trained to hate right it's it's all letters with highlighting on them um and so I was like but yeah but it's kind of doing some cool stuff like I

這很有道理。那接下來呢？

think I can learn some things from this even though I'm not writing mailers um but there was still this conflict everybody in the a lot of people in the

接下來是你的社會證明。人們想知道其他人也在使用你的產品，而且效果很好。

organization and people are just like otherwise you would talk about copywriting would conflate it with writing a blog post or some other like any any writing was copywriting and I

這可以是推薦語、案例研究、客戶logo、評價等等。

was like that can't be right because if you get hired as a copywriter if you get hired as a copywriter at a tech company they're going to expect

在頁面的前面放一些社會證明。不要把它藏在最底部。

results and so that's when I started to say like no we're gonna it's conversion focused copywriting conversion focused copywriting and then I said it so many

好的。那功能和好處呢？

times and I talk really fast too and I kept stumbling over the focused Parts I was like effort conversion copywriting and that's where it came from

好問題。很多SaaS公司犯的錯誤是只列出功能。功能很重要，但人們不會因為功能而購買。

amazing it's so true even to this day I speak to people I say oh we hired a a content manager I'm like okay so are they going to be like writing blogs and

他們因為好處而購買。他們想知道你的產品會如何讓他們的生活更好。

making videos or are they going to be doing conversion Focus copying it's like oh or both I'm like okay well these are very very different things I mean it's a

所以每個功能都應該與好處掛鉤。不要只說「自動報告」，說「自動報告讓你每週節省5小時」。

whole science right I mean you when you started I mean this just to maybe give some context when you started this this was 10 plus years ago years ago when I

這讓人們可以看到價值。

started 12 years ago this year yeah and I'm guessing and I'm guessing when you started like now if you want to you know research and understand how to do

那行動呼籲（CTA）呢？

copywriting you have copy hackers you have you know a lot of cxl you have like a bunch of information on this back then I'm guessing you didn't have anywhere

CTA非常重要。這是你告訴人們做什麼的地方。

near as much information so yeah is that why you started copy hackers or yeah I actually I was um so when I was out into it I was really interested you know as Tech

最大的錯誤是有太多CTA，或者有不清楚的CTA。

um until it was installed software at the time like QuickBooks was the kind that you bought at Best Buy or Staples in a box and you installed the CD-ROM I

你應該有一個主要的CTA，它應該非常清楚，告訴人們點擊後會發生什麼。

remember I remember myself but but that wasn't the way it had to be at the time there were other cool things like uh Intuit also had um I guess Quicken was

「開始免費試用」比「提交」好得多。它設定了期望。

it's not available anymore um but that was the personal finance software um and then mint came out and mint was like all online and we were like what it

你提到演示。你對「預約演示」作為CTA有什麼看法？

can be all online and suddenly like everybody got excited about building software now like we can build it's in the cloud and like you just got so excited

啊，這是一個常見的問題。我對「預約演示」不是很喜歡。

um right so where was I going with that now I'm thinking about all the tools that um that I built but what was the question I think my original my original

原因是，就像我一開始說的，沒有人真的想要一個演示。他們想要特定的東西。

point was around when you started this that just wasn't much the educational information and that's maybe why you started copy hackers I guess but I don't

如果你必須用演示，至少要讓它更具體。比如「看看如何在30分鐘內設置自動化」。

know yes so I would was so keen on this like this world of people starting to build their own things that I started hanging out in Hacker News a lot just

這給人們一個理由來參加演示。

like reading I wasn't engaging I had a little account a little profile called blogger girl um and because I was blogging as well so it's just like what I went with it

那在演示頁面上呢？

wasn't a reference to copywriting at all um anyway so I was hanging out there and then I started uh there's one person Sharif beche who put

在演示頁面上，不要只是說「預約演示」。告訴人們他們會看到什麼。

together a tool and he did like a show hn show Hacker News is like a post you can do um and it went to the top of Hacker News

列出他們會得到的東西：「在這個演示中，你會看到如何設置自動化、如何追蹤報告、如何與你的團隊協作」。

and so I clicked through and he was like just showing this tool that he built um and the website for it and I was like

這讓人們更有可能預約，因為他們知道他們會得到什麼。

I read the website and I was like oh no oh no this website is not good Sharif so I just quickly put together a deck um that was like here's what you're

好的，讓我們談談頁面結構。一個好的著陸頁應該如何組織？

doing here's what the copy is here's why that might not work maybe try this instead and then I just fired it his way um and that's kind of where like I was

好問題。我通常推薦這個結構：首先是英雄區塊——你的標題、副標題、主要CTA，可能還有一個英雄圖片或視頻。

just very interested in this stuff and then he posted to Hacker News my this this deck that I had um sent him in this hn post that blew up that was all about

然後是社會證明——一些客戶logo或短推薦。

like The Hacker News Community is so giving look this person just put all this whole deck together for me I got inundated my inbox I was out for dinner for my birthday

然後是功能/好處——解釋你的產品做什麼以及為什麼它很重要。

um I got home and my inbox was just like like full like stupid fault and I was like what's happening um and I saw all these all these startup

然後是更多社會證明——更詳細的推薦或案例研究。

Founders had reached out and said like hey I love what you did there can you help me can you help me and the first ones I was like sure sure sure then as I

然後是定價或下一步——如果適用的話。

started like replying to all these I was like I do not have time for this I actually have a full-time job so I can't do this

最後是常見問題——解決常見的異議或問題。

um and then so I'd say sorry I can't they're like well why could you at least write a book or something like can you put an ebook together

然後是最終的CTA——再次告訴他們下一步要做什麼。

um and that's where I was like I can probably do that so I took all of these like these people that I was doing this free work with and they were like I'll

這是一個很好的框架。那關於頁面長度呢？長頁面好還是短頁面好？

pay you and I was like I don't want to get paid as soon as you get paid it becomes way less interesting and I loved yeah like Tech as like just a space

這取決於。一般規則是：你的產品越複雜、越昂貴，你的頁面應該越長。

where people help each other I just really loved it so I was like no don't pay me I'll write this book though and then the people that I did work with

如果你賣的是一個簡單的10美元/月的工具，你可能不需要一個很長的頁面。

I turn those into little case studies that I put throughout the book um which turned into this big 250 excuse me 250 page book uh that I then had some

但如果你賣的是一個企業解決方案，可能需要幾個月才能做出購買決定，你需要更多內容來解決所有的問題和異議。

beta readers come in and say like no do not do this giant ebook so I broke it up into ebooks and I launched those eBooks on Hacker News and then that was really

你怎麼知道你的頁面是否足夠長？

it that like I sold I think it was twenty thousand dollars worth which for me I had just left my tech job um and for me I was like okay that's a

測試。A/B測試是你最好的朋友。嘗試不同的長度，看看哪個轉化率更好。

good signal so I just decided to write a blog from that point on and then take on some Consulting gigs and keep kind of sharing everything I learned as I was

但作為起點，確保你解決了所有主要的問題和異議。如果人們有未回答的問題就離開了，你的頁面可能太短了。

Consulting with people just bring it back publish it and that's that's where that's why I started writing and sharing online super cool yeah maybe you can explain to

讓我們談談文案技巧。你有什麼讓文案更有效的秘訣？

people what is um copy hackers in today's kind of formation sure copy hackers is I mean we call it the home of the world's copywriters that doesn't mean we exclusively work with

有很多！首先，使用客戶的語言。

copywriters but over the last 12 years copywriters have gravitated towards us um yeah but it's a space uh with free resources and then paid training as well um so it's uh

去看你的客戶的評論、支持票、銷售電話錄音。看看他們實際上是怎麼描述他們的問題和解決方案的。

it uh three almost four million dollars a year uh training company and that's not Services that's just fully like buy a course learn how to do this

然後在你的文案中使用那些確切的詞語。這叫做「客戶聲音」研究。

um yeah and uh with a lot of lots of free there's the paid stuff right if you want to get really good at this or if you have something to write that's like

為什麼這麼重要？

it's so critical that I get this right like you're putting together your onboarding emails and you've done all of this work to acquire these new users but then they're like bailing on you you

因為當人們看到他們自己的語言被反映回來時，他們會覺得你理解他們。這建立信任。

have to like work on these emails then you'll probably want to go and take the full like email training program um but other than that if you're like I

他們也更容易理解你說的話，因為你用的是他們已經知道的詞彙。

know a lot of we have you know just a hundred thousand people on our list and over the years over 12 years I've heard from these uh people who used

那是一個很好的技巧。還有其他的嗎？

to work at small companies or like they were small at the time so like um you might have been a VP or not sorry you might have been like a marketing

是的。具體比模糊好。不要說「快速結果」，說「在7天內看到結果」。

coordinator at unbounce 10 years ago and now you're a VP of growth somewhere else but along the way you were taking our tutorials like our free they're called tutorial Tuesdays

不要說「很多公司信任我們」，說「超過5,000家公司使用我們」。

um you were taking those maybe as a team this is like anecdotal what we've heard from people they would someone would get our tutorial on Tuesday book time with

具體的數字和細節讓你的主張更可信。

the team on Friday to go sit in a room and execute on this tutorial totally free do it yourself it's fine um and that's kind of what we're there

對於社會證明有什麼建議？

for I I would love for everything to be free so that people can just do this um and get hopefully good results and we can keep hearing from people and iterating and learning

最好的社會證明是具體的、可信的、相關的。

um we do as much free as we can and then there's the paid upgrade stuff yeah amazing thank you for the uh the context in the backstory so with that in mind

不要只是說「很棒的產品！」——這沒有說服力。

you're probably the perfect person to ask how to build the well if there was such a thing as a perfect SAS conversion focused landing page you're probably the perfect person

最好是「我們的轉化率提高了35%」這樣的推薦。它具體，它可測量，它告訴其他人他們也可以期待什麼。

to ask that that's exactly what I'm going to do I'm going to try and get the perfect structure in how you would go about doing that so um yeah maybe we can maybe

而且確保你的推薦來自與你的目標客戶類似的人或公司。

we can just jump straight into that so you have like um your own process and it has three different phases maybe you can just start by explaining what that

如果你賣給小企業，來自財富500強的推薦可能不太相關。

overall process is and we can dig in yeah so it's pretty straightforward thing um begins with research and discovery which then moves into writing editing and then comes validation and experimentation so

讓我們談談一些常見的錯誤。人們在SaaS著陸頁上最常犯的錯誤是什麼？

we've got in that first phase I say research and Discovery but it ends up then turning into this like mini phase called planning so synthesize everything you learned in research and Discovery

哦，有很多。首先是太關注自己，不夠關注客戶。

and then plan what you're going to do so that you can write wireframe edit and then move into validating so is the market actually likely to not even

很多頁面都是「我們」、「我們的」、「我們的產品」。

respond well to it but is there anything in here that could be off-putting for people um a lot of brands are way more terrified of um negatively impacting in some way than

應該是「你」、「你的」、「你的問題」。文案應該是關於客戶，而不是關於你。

they are hopeful that they'll get positive results out of it so oftentimes validation is just like let's just make sure we're not like breaking our brand somehow here and like our audience will

另一個常見錯誤是什麼？

come away not liking us or totally confused about what we do um but yeah that's the basic process in research and Discovery you're doing exactly what it sounds like like this is

試圖賣給所有人。當你試圖吸引所有人時，你最終吸引不了任何人。

the part when I talk about those books that I launched with on Hacker News the first book was called where Stellar messages come from and it's about like stop staring at your screen

最好是對特定的受眾說話，即使這意味著排除一些人。

um and I know I can say this till I'm blue in the face and I will say it until I'm 190 years old and people still will

一個清晰、有針對性的信息比一個模糊、通用的信息更有效。

not want to do it um but I think chat gbt will help with this um you don't want to just like stare at the screen you want to go listen to what

還有什麼？

customers prospects your audience look-alikes what they're saying and then you just shut up and take the steps and put it on the page um and I know it's slightly more

太多選項。給人們太多選擇會導致決策癱瘓。

complicated than that but it doesn't have to be that much more complicated than that so you go and listen you take take what you hear you like depending on

你的著陸頁應該有一個主要目標，一個主要CTA。不要讓人們分心。

how much you hear you might be categorizing things you might find like oh uh here's the categories like just segments audience segments and then what they're saying so like a basic table or spreadsheet

如果你有多個產品或計劃，可以考慮為每個創建單獨的著陸頁。

um where you have problems uh problems that X market so VPS of marketing commonly talk about this problem when it comes to a solution like ours or our category like what it solves

那關於設計呢？設計在著陸頁中扮演什麼角色？

um and things like that right but we want to go listen we want to categorize what we're hearing so that we can then write for people and make it sound like

設計非常重要，但它應該為文案服務，而不是相反。

we're inside their heads in ways that almost no copy actually does because of so many things we're telling ourselves about what web copy or a perfect SAS

好的設計讓內容更容易閱讀和理解。它引導眼睛到正確的地方。

landing page is supposed to do or how it's supposed to sound your headline should be six words long it can't be longer than that it definitely shouldn't be in the first person

但太花哨的設計可能會分散注意力。保持簡單，專注於清晰。

did you just put in the quotation marks you can't do that either right like all of these like crazy ideas um that I honestly God bless designers

你對視頻在著陸頁上有什麼看法？

but I think they come more from the design world than they do from persuasion and actually like conversion copywriting or direct response copywriting so that's the process though

視頻可以非常有效，特別是對於複雜的產品。

I got it makes sense so on the research side in my experience this is one it sounds like for you as well you said you'll be banging on uh with the same

但它必須簡短、有價值，並且有明確的CTA。

message for years and years but research seems to be one of the most overlooked parts and it's probably if you're going to do one thing really really well it

很多人的錯誤是做太長的視頻，或者視頻沒有明確的下一步。

was probably make sure you do incredibly good uh research so um do you feel like the is you kind of said that they're speaking to the customer I guess is like the Holy Grail

一個2-3分鐘的解釋視頻通常就足夠了。

of research right you want to hear you want to feel you know the actual and use the actual words that the customer is saying but is there can you put a bit

讓我們談談測試和優化。你如何知道你的著陸頁是否有效？

more kind of um meat on the bone is it because even just doing interviews there's a whole science around how you can do interviews right and I'm not

數據，數據，數據。設置分析，追蹤轉化率，看看人們在哪裡離開。

expecting you to give me the whole um schooling in that but like what would be like one or two three pieces of advice you would give for someone wanting to do

熱圖工具可以告訴你人們在看什麼、點擊什麼。

interviews yeah I do the follow jobs to be fun um I clicked quickly with Bob from rewired group years ago when we were both at a business of software in Boston

用戶測試可以告訴你人們在想什麼、他們對什麼感到困惑。

um they're just that's just exactly right like you don't have to interview a lot of people um we've now followed the jobs to be done methodology when it comes to our

然後A/B測試不同的版本，看看哪個效果更好。

interviews because they used to just be like I would sit down with a founder and basically just for an hour just pick their brain on why they built this thing

你建議首先測試什麼？

in the first place and then like who they built it for why is that the right group um and that's where I mean that alone is good so if you are a consultant trying

標題是一個很好的起點。它是頁面上最重要的元素之一。

to find the right message for some reason I don't know why but okay then that's a good thing to do you can also if you're a founder of a SAS company you

然後是CTA——文字、顏色、位置。

can just interview yourself so just like open up your recorder and start like talking through where this came from in the first place and then like your transcript is basically built instantly

然後是社會證明的位置和類型。

in any tool you're using now so then just read over it print it out if you want to get like really analog about the whole thing uh print it out and like

從最大的影響開始，然後往下走。

Circle or highlight things that are interesting that don't sound like marketing um but so if you're going to get if you're going to let's say do an initiative where you're like we are

你對免費試用vs演示有什麼看法？哪個更好？

interviewing our customers then I say follow jobs to be done if you're like oh it's just me and I just have to like get some messages out there

這取決於你的產品和你的銷售模式。

um still try jobs to be done but if you can't do that then at least sit down and interview yourself um not trying to give polished messages

如果你的產品很容易上手，免費試用可能更好。它降低了摩擦，讓人們自己體驗產品。

if you've heard it if you've written it before strike it it's not it's a no has to be like the reason for interviews yes there's the overarching what like the

但如果你的產品需要指導，或者你賣的是更高價的解決方案，演示可能更合適。

message to say but there's also the how there's the actual language that people use to talk about these things that they're going through what they want what they've tried what's failed them

也可以兩者都提供，讓訪客選擇。

what they're hopeful for um all of these things they'll tell you uh so but yeah when it comes to the actual like scientific part of it I do

讓我們談談不同類型的著陸頁。功能頁面和首頁有什麼區別？

the thing like I attended Bob's uh workshop and and then I've bought his training online as well Bob again from rewired group um you just pick a sheet of paper you

首頁是你的網站的主頁。它需要適用於多種訪客——現有客戶、潛在客戶、投資者、媒體等。

draw a line diagonally down it and you start going through the Journey and ideally there's two of you involved in the interview but if you can't do that I've done them alone as well

功能頁面或著陸頁更專注。它為特定的受眾、特定的目標而設計。

um and then just listen make sure you're recording and then go back and I I use notes I use Apple notes and I just type out interesting insights that I'm hearing

如果你在投放廣告，你通常會把人們送到一個專門的著陸頁，而不是首頁。

um and then if if there's particularly interesting language I put it in quotation marks so I know it's like actual voice of customer and if it's an

這樣你可以讓信息更相關，轉化率更高。

Insight that I have I put it in all caps so I know that was me it's not from the thing but this is really like basic right it sounds like you can't do that

定價頁面呢？

at scale well no but you're only gonna do like seven interviews so don't worry about it and if you can't find time to do that work to get what you're about to

定價頁面是另一個重要的頁面。這是人們做出購買決定的地方。

get out of it then you really need to like hire someone else because it's really important work to do oh for sure and can I add one in there I

它應該清晰、容易比較不同的選項，並消除任何關於定價的疑慮。

don't know if you agree with this but whenever we've done um custom interviews that we've helped our clients with custom interviews we've spoken to the sales team and the sales people always

不要隱藏定價。如果人們找不到價格，他們通常會假設它太貴了。

have such great information when it comes to objections and things like so do you think speaking to sales team is a good idea as well so I was working with a tech company

你對「聯繫我們獲取價格」有什麼看法？

called get Prime um they've been acquired since uh they uh had they were my first introduction to chorus.ai which is leg gong a lot of people use gong as well

我理解為什麼一些公司這樣做，特別是對於企業銷售。

um but that was when I could really it's one thing to like listen in on sales like sure talk to sales people great but they're going to synthesize it

但如果可能的話，我建議至少給出一個起始價格或價格範圍。

they're going to summarize things for you here's what people like and you're like I don't no no I don't want your summary I need like raw data

這幫助人們自我篩選，也節省了你的銷售團隊的時間。

um and so if you can go in and like actually watch the demo happening and especially watch over time watch with different sales people um it's it's it's

讓我們談談移動體驗。你有什麼建議？

eye-opening you can see what people what people in a demo don't care about when they just like glaze over um like this is the kind of stuff that

移動非常重要。很多流量現在來自移動設備。

you can't read in a transcript you can't tell when a person got bored um but you can tell that in watching a demo so um I love love watching demos

確保你的著陸頁在移動上看起來好、加載快、容易導航。

and it's definitely part of the Cornerstone of the research that we like to do so the corner like the core stuff interview new customers wherever possible sometimes it's worthwhile to interview like long-term customers

CTA按鈕應該足夠大，容易點擊。表單應該簡短。

clients if you have to narrow it down talk to the newest customers you have their memories are freshest right um they're not willing to put up with the same level of crap that somebody

測試你的頁面在不同設備上的表現。

who's been around for a long time is so interviews um do the demo recordings like go through them like we just talked about uh sales call recordings demo recordings

讓我們做一些Q&A。有人問：B2B和B2C著陸頁有什麼區別？

whatever you want to call them whatever they are um and then thank you page surveys or confirmation page surveys so any new lead or any new customer

好問題。B2B銷售週期通常更長，涉及更多決策者。

soon as like and this is good if you have some sort of checkout right or some place to land people I know like that sounds like e-commerce what I'm talking

所以B2B著陸頁通常需要更多內容來教育和說服。

about when you hit whatever on a pricing table and then you move to the credit card screen um then the Lander after that the confirmation page people love to drop

它們也可能需要更多的社會證明，特別是來自類似行業或公司規模的。

right into app but I'm like this is such a seducible moment they have just said yes to you they've just said okay I'm gonna give you my money or I'm gonna

B2C著陸頁可以更直接，因為決策通常更快、更情感化。

give you my email address those are really big moments for them and they like you in that moment they're more likely to like you than not to like you

另一個問題：如何為不同的關鍵詞創建不同的著陸頁？

if they didn't like you they probably wouldn't be engaging with you so don't worry about it these are the times when you can ask one question I recommend one

這是一個很好的策略。如果你在針對不同的關鍵詞投放廣告，為每個關鍵詞創建一個專門的著陸頁可以大大提高你的轉化率。

question and this is one that I worked on and refined when I was at conversion rate experts um and it goes what was going on in your

確保標題和內容與搜索意圖相符。

life that brought you to blank so what was going on in your life that brought you to listen to this podcast today or download this podcast today what was

如果有人搜索「小企業會計軟體」，他們應該看到一個專門針對小企業的頁面，而不是一個通用的頁面。

going on in your life that brought you to uh recognize that you need to grow your list whatever that thing is right and then leave a big blank space for them to

下一個問題：你如何處理長銷售週期的著陸頁？

actually fill this in with their own words not multiple choice don't people are like oh but my response rates will be low this is the moment you can ask

對於長銷售週期，你不一定要在著陸頁上完成銷售。

them to share with you and you'll be amazed people do they write out real insights into like look I was struggling with this thing I'm so tired of it and

你的目標可能是獲取聯繫信息，然後通過電子郵件或銷售跟進。

they'll get into like real language and then you get to go through that and make turn it into what to say and how to say it and it's like so that's it those are

所以你的CTA可能是「下載白皮書」或「獲取案例研究」，而不是「立即購買」。

where I say that where I I wouldn't do an engagement I would if they don't have a sales team then I'd have to do an engagement without going through demo call recordings

你仍然在頁面上建立價值和信任，但你知道轉化會在後來發生。

um but otherwise if you can interviews demo recording or sales call replays and thank you page surveys yeah the last one's gold I I don't recall um anybody in SAS doing that and even

最後一個問題：你對彈出窗口有什麼看法？

though from my own business I'm thinking you know we should do the same thing after somebody completes a consultation request or you know we should do that so great advice

彈出窗口可以有效，但它們也可能很煩人。關鍵是時機和價值。

we've been asking for our copy School we've got now like 5 000 plus responses that we can and you can see over the years how things change right what was

不要在人們剛到達頁面時就彈出。讓他們先看看內容。

important to people five years ago when they were buying this program is still important but there might be something else that they're saying now or a tone

而且確保你的彈出窗口提供真正的價值，而不只是要求他們的電子郵件。

of optimism compared to like a tone of oh my gosh I'm so stressed about X um so yeah it's a very and it's so easy

退出意圖彈出窗口（當人們要離開時出現）通常比其他類型更有效、更少打擾。

to set up like get a type form embed it in a landing page and as soon as they complete that then you can send them

好的，讓我們總結一下今天討論的關鍵點。

into app but yeah I love it too got it okay perfect so we've done research we have some amazing insights from our customers we don't want to start looking

首先，清晰的價值主張——讓人們立即理解你提供什麼。

at a page you said now we have all this information we actually start wanting to put pen to paper or creating some kind of wireframe so kind of what comes next

第二，社會證明——展示其他人信任你並取得成果。

after you've done the research then you have to make sense of it so like like I was mentioning you've got to go through synthesize it now there are

第三，功能與好處——不只是說你的產品做什麼，還要說為什麼它重要。

so many ways to do it I do it pretty manually um so I do open up a Google sheet I have tabs along the bottom for different like

第四，清晰的CTA——告訴人們下一步要做什麼，設定期望。

segments and things I'm going to be uh going through and trying to make sense of but I'm looking for what problems are they talking about um what specific moments do they get

第五，使用客戶的語言——做「客戶聲音」研究，使用他們自己的詞語。

into like listen for their specific situations like real words when you they say them when they're written there on the screen you can actually visualize what was going on in their life like you

第六，具體——用數字、細節和例子讓你的主張更可信。

can you can see it it's real um not just like oh I really wanted my job to get better like what are you gonna do with that like that's you

第七，專注——一個目標，一個受眾，一個CTA。

probably would have guessed at like some of the common stuff you're like it's okay I don't need that you can still categorize it so you've got like a

第八，測試——使用數據來改進，持續優化。

frequency of message so you actually do walk where you could hand the data off anyway there's all sorts of stuff that we can say about it but we have to take

這是一個很好的總結。謝謝你今天分享這麼多見解。

what we've learned there makes sense there what we've heard there make sense of it so that we can start saying okay we have this website to write or we have this landing page where

不客氣。希望這對觀看的人有幫助。

we're doing this uh campaign in May we're going to send all of this paid traffic to a variety of landing pages for this now we have to be able to write those

如果人們想了解更多，他們可以在哪裡找到你？

um and that's where you'll take what you've heard and start organizing the messages so that you can then start copying and pasting those messages directly into like a landing page

他們可以去copyhackers.com。我們有很多免費資源——文章、視頻、課程。

builder or your own page whatever you might end up doing yeah have having done this um personally and then also adding in um like message mining from external sources and have this big spreadsheet

我們也有一個很棒的社區，人們可以在那裡提問和分享。

full of uh you know like 200 uh you know rows and then we would go through and we would um categorize them is this like a

太棒了。好的，謝謝Joanna。對於觀看的人，記得訂閱。

uh is this a motivation is this a like and we would like category I actually forget all the different ways we categorize them now but would there be

我們下次再見。保重！

like I don't know how would you think about categorizing the things that you've heard like three or four five that the main ones yeah um I would recommend that you do it in

再見！去創造一些轉化吧！

the way that's most useful for you uh like what is your end goal so I can say I know that for me I'm quickly imagining how this is like because I've been doing

讓我們深入探討一些我們提到但沒有詳細討論的話題。

this for 20 years I'm likely to start thinking through what that page is going to look like and I'm aware that I'll need to know what their problems are how

好的，你想從哪裡開始？

to agitate those problems what Solutions they've tried what solution what they wish those solutions would do like so I'm starting to think through that and I can put then columns that are like

讓我們談談標題公式。你有什麼推薦的標題結構嗎？

problem and that would be like the high level version of the problem and then agitation would be like a column right next to it that like digs into it then

有很多有效的標題公式。一個經典的是「目標客戶獲得結果，沒有痛點」的結構。

Solutions they've tried uh etc etc so I'm going through Frameworks I also know that I might do desire and obstacles so those will be in other columns that I

例如：「專案經理在一半的時間內完成專案，沒有混亂」。

have however that's because that's how I right I'm going to be architecting the message in that way um but if if you're somebody who's like okay well I really believe in jobs so

另一個有效的是「如何X」的結構，例如「如何在7天內將你的轉化率提高35%」。

I'm gonna take the jobs map that exists and I'm going to have those the four different all of these forces I'm going to put everything in columns um give them the labels associated with

「X的秘密」或「X的指南」也很有效。

it and then from there I can start categorizing into these the forces diagram that jobs has right so that's perfectly valid that's great all I would say is when you're trying to make sense

最重要的是測試。不同的受眾對不同的標題有不同的反應。

of the data what that really means with voice of customer is you're trying to figure out the story right that's how I see it at least so if you're trying to

那關於副標題呢？

figure out the story the story of your customers as they were as they want to be this this whole journey that they're going to go on tell the story to

副標題是支持標題的地方。它可以：擴展標題的承諾、解釋你是誰/做什麼、或處理一個常見的異議。

yourself in a way that you can later tell the story again so if if problem agitation solution doesn't mean any anything to you than me saying categorize into pronunciation solution

例如，如果你的標題是「在一半的時間內完成專案」，你的副標題可以是「使用我們的AI驅動的專案管理平臺，被超過5,000個團隊使用」。

won't actually work for you so I'd say if you love jobs organize information in a way that fits with that methodology if you are really keen on the value

這添加了更多細節和社會證明。

proposition framework that was like such a massive thing for a while there and you want to categorize things that way cool go for that um whatever you do just make sure that

讓我們談談按鈕文字。什麼樣的CTA文字最有效？

in the end you don't have a document or a spreadsheet that's nice to put in an archive you need it to be something you actively reference when you're writing copy

好的CTA文字應該：清楚說明接下來會發生什麼、使用行動詞、如果可能的話傳達價值。

yeah maybe so you kind of touched on it there with the um there are different um copywriting Frameworks right so P did you call it pass or is it Poss p-a-s

「開始免費試用」比「提交」好得多。「獲取你的免費報告」比「下載」好。

yeah p-a-s so pain agitation solution would be on right so yeah what is that you'd speak about uh you know the pain that the customer is experiencing then

也可以嘗試第一人稱，如「開始我的免費試用」。這有時可以增加轉化。

you agitate it and then you provide the solution so is that how people once they've done the research they've categorized that that's how they should be thinking about the wireframe and kind

你提到了摩擦。什麼是摩擦，如何減少它？

of the layer of the Page by using a copywriting framework yeah I'd recommend a copywriting framework as a starting point um and the reason I mean the key reason

摩擦是阻礙人們採取行動的任何東西。它可以是心理的（擔憂、疑慮）或實際的（複雜的表單、慢的頁面）。

is because for me once I was introduced to Frameworks it was like the you know cliched light bulb moment I was like oh no I don't have to guess no I don't like

減少摩擦的方法：簡化表單（只問必要的信息）、添加安全徽章和保證、回答常見問題、確保頁面加載快。

to imagine what to do first I can just just State what their problem is interesting and then I can agitate it so I can put a bunch of examples in of how

每一個額外的步驟或信息請求都會導致一些人離開。盡量使轉化路徑盡可能簡單。

that problem comes to life for them okay I can do that right and so for me when I'm teaching this I mean and once you're 20 30 years down

讓我們談談長內容vs短內容。你提到它取決於產品。能更詳細說明嗎？

the road writing copy you can do it differently if you want to right but this is what I find to be an easy way to kind of like break into that page right

當然。考慮你的訪客的認知階段。他們是完全不了解問題和解決方案的？還是他們已經在積極尋找你的類型的產品？

you've got this blank white page staring at you even if you use AI to help you with that blank page you still there's still a lot of tension and friction

對於高認知的訪客（已經知道他們需要什麼），短內容可能就夠了。他們只需要確認你是正確的選擇。

there and you've gotta like figure out what to do with AI for that too so just another another talk entirely um but you've got this blank page you

對於低認知的訪客，你需要更多內容來教育他們關於問題、解決方案和為什麼是你。

got to find some way into it I find if you can just start putting words on there that's a start right that's at least okay it's not just staring at me

B2B高價產品通常需要更長的內容，因為決策更複雜，有更多的利益相關者。

so the words I put on are the framework words whatever framework makes sense now we can talk about how to choose a framework and there are a lot of them

那關於社會證明的類型呢？你推薦什麼？

um in the world and I say a lot there's not like a thousand there's like maybe a hundred good reusable copywriting Frameworks you do not need to know all

最有力的社會證明是結果導向的推薦——具體的數字和成果。

of them trust me a lot of them will confuse like they confuse me and I've been attempting to use them for years and it's kind of my job to not be

其次是來自知名公司或人物的推薦。

confused by them but I still am so can I I'll show you to interrupt can I um can I ask just quickly then so is Pas you all preferred and then like what would

然後是客戶logo——尤其是如果是知名品牌。

be like two and three if there are two dos uh which is desire obstacle Solution that's my other one so what's the most desirable thing that they want and then

然後是用戶數量或客戶數量——「被10,000+公司使用」。

what's getting in their way is kind of like I really I love I love love love it especially today when problem education solution leads with a problem and people have been so

然後是評價和評分——如G2、Capterra上的評分。

um burdened with problems like it's been such a hard couple of years that often it can feel not very empathetic uh yeah to start there so it's nice to start

混合使用這些可以建立多層次的信任。

with this desirable outcome that they're looking for and then the obstacle that's getting in their way this is all stuff that's going to get them nodding along

讓我們談談FAQ部分。什麼是好的FAQ？

with you right like this is the kind of thing where they're like it's like you're in my head um because you stole it from them you stole those messages

好的FAQ回答真正的問題——來自銷售電話、支持票、客戶研究的問題。

right uh so you are that's how you got there and then solution um is just like problem education solution and why I like these two so

不要只是重複你已經說過的話。使用FAQ來處理真正的異議和擔憂。

those are the only real two that I rely on I find myself inadvertently using other Frameworks like when I go back and look over it and like oh that's the four

常見的異議包括：價格（「這太貴了」）、時間（「我現在太忙了」）、風險（「如果不適合我怎麼辦」）、替代方案（「我可以用X代替」）。

Ps but if I started with four Ps I would be like I don't even which comes first is it picture or promise I don't know which one comes first and I'm confused

你的FAQ應該直接解決這些，以消除購買障礙。

now and annoyed so I just do a problem notation solution uh desire obstacle a solution and the thing about those that makes them powerful that I think makes

讓我們談談緊迫性和稀缺性。這些是否仍然有效？

them powerful is you know what a problem is or pain depending which pain problem same diff right you know what agitation is mostly like are you agitating it are

是的，它們仍然有效，但必須真實。假的緊迫性（「最後機會！」當它不是真的時候）會損害信任。

you poking at the wound right like you know if you're you know what adjective you know when you're agitated you know it's not I'm agitated um so you can tell that and then

真實的緊迫性可以是：限時優惠、有限的可用性、價格即將上漲、季節性折扣。

solution n is wide open so I can make I can hook people which is the hardest part I can keep them reading which is the second hardest part and then by the

如果你有真正的緊迫性，一定要使用它。它可以大大提高轉化。

time they're nodding with me through problem agitation or desire obstacle then they're there and now I can start getting into solution and I can move quickly through solution or I can move

讓我們談談不同的流量來源。著陸頁應該如何針對不同的流量來源進行調整？

slowly through solution depends on it depends on a lot of things um but it does so solution is so wide open that I can jump quickly into my

這是一個很好的觀點。來自不同來源的訪客有不同的意圖和期望。

solution if p and a got them ready for that or I can explore problematic solutions that they've tried and had and now we're trying to switch them right where the switch is such an

來自Google搜索的人通常是高意圖的——他們在積極尋找解決方案。

important part of getting people to convert so I can move them through oh that solution what didn't work for it then you're kind of having like mini pas's throughout there like the problem

來自Facebook廣告的人通常是低意圖的——他們可能之前沒有考慮過你的類別。

with that solution is and it looked like this and and then another problem and another one right for those different solutions and then I can finally start saying what

所以對於搜索流量，你可以更直接。對於社交流量，你可能需要更多教育和說服。

if you had a solution that did and then you like go back against all of those things that they just said were getting in their way they've agreed with you to

確保你的著陸頁與廣告或鏈接的信息匹配。這叫做「消息匹配」，對轉化率非常重要。

this point and now I can introduce my solution so I love the openness of solution and the specific yes or no you got this or you didn't get it of problem

讓我們談談後續。有人轉化後，接下來應該發生什麼？

agitation or desire and obstacle maybe it's a really obvious thing to say but I guess the beauty of using something when pain is because it invokes like an emotional response right

這是很多公司忽略的地方。有人註冊後，確認頁面和確認郵件是繼續建立關係的機會。

that's is that kind of ultimately the goal you're trying to emotionally hook somebody in and that's the part that most marketers get anxious about and I think that's where a lot of

不要只是說「謝謝，我們會聯繫你」。告訴他們接下來會發生什麼，什麼時候會發生，他們可以做什麼準備。

if you're a startup and this is probably why I love startup so much you're more willing to take on these riskier things because you have to break in somehow and

也可以利用這個機會提供額外的價值，比如相關資源、下一步建議等。

I don't mean you have to use anything harsh but a lot of marketers are um I love marketers I am a marketer a lot of marketers are scared though there's

那關於跳出率和退出率呢？這些指標告訴我們什麼？

great fear in saying something that might stand out um and it might make people feel something as soon as you make someone feel something you send an email that makes people feel something they're

跳出率是只看一個頁面就離開的訪客百分比。退出率是從特定頁面離開的訪客百分比。

going to be replying and your customer service team is going to be like don't send that email anymore people are replying um and you get like worked up and scared

高跳出率可能意味著：你的頁面不相關（消息不匹配）、加載太慢、設計或文案有問題、或者訪客找到了他們需要的東西就離開了。

right but that's the point they're supposed to be replying and that sometimes they'll be like you made me feel something and people won't like it like the end user won't like it but

不要只看數字。要結合其他指標和用戶反饋來理解發生了什麼。

that's because they felt something for the first time in a while um and as long as you're on brand as you're thinking through what you're trying to make them feel as long as

讓我們談談競爭對手。你應該在著陸頁上提到競爭對手嗎？

you're doing it with empathy if I say what your problem is and I make it feel like I'm on board with you like I get it this is a problem that people have it's

這是一個很好的問題。有時是的，特別是如果你有明確的差異化優勢。

not like hey you dummy didn't you know and then like you're saying like mean things like it's not that it's it's like for uh sweat block the headline that we

比較表可以很有效，只要它們是公平的、準確的。

had that was for problem adaptation solution it's not SAS it's e-commerce um but it's a good really clear example um the headline was in the first person so sweat block is this solution

但要小心不要給競爭對手免費的廣告，或者顯得太防禦性。

for hyperhidrosis so if you sweat a lot and not just because it's hot out you're sweating behind your knees your face is drenched when you're in front of an audience right and it's like

讓我們談談本地化。如果你的產品面向多個市場，應該如何處理？

debilitating you can't actually go out you can't high five people you're afraid to shake hands you don't want to wear certain colors like it's a really tough thing

如果你有國際客戶，本地化可以大大提高轉化。

um people have problems it solves that problem and so the headline that we tested was it doesn't even have to be hot out my armpits are always wet and

這不只是翻譯——它是調整你的信息、例子、定價、社會證明以適應當地市場。

that was in the quotation marks and it's like it's a problem it's a problem that if I land there and I and I actually have experienced anything like that even

例如，在美國有效的推薦可能對歐洲或亞洲的受眾沒有同樣的影響。

if it's not well it's not my armpits for me it's my face or it's the back of my knees or whatever I'm still like nodding with you like you get me and it wasn't

考慮為你最大的市場創建專門的著陸頁版本。

us being mean we're not saying anything there's nothing bad about it it's here's your actual problem we can solve that for you and just make people feel that

我們快結束了。你有什麼最後的建議想分享嗎？

instead of saying like sweat block is the number one way to stay dry like okay that's fine but it's not really going to do anything for people

是的。記住，你的著陸頁是一個活的東西。它不應該是一勞永逸的。

yeah totally I feel like in um in SAS as well like we um you know we get like any business we get low quality leads we get high quality leads that come into into

持續收集數據，聽取客戶反饋，進行測試，不斷改進。

our agency and usually I can always tell when I read the copy on the site in the first like 30 seconds I can really tell the quality of the marketing in the

最好的著陸頁是經過無數次迭代的結果。

company you can really tell when a company gets copywriting and they do all the things that you just said versus like we are this and then they just taught you superlatives they use they

而且，不要忘記用戶。很容易陷入指標和技術中，忘記頁面的另一端是真實的人。

try and sound fancy you don't understand what the hell the thing does yeah yeah it's yeah it's it's bad all right it's probably written by committee too right

想想你的用戶是誰，他們想要什麼，他們在擔心什麼。然後幫助他們。

there was probably a group of group of people sitting around in a Google doc oh it gives me a heart palpitation let's relax because you've seen them do

這是完美的結束語。謝謝你，Joanna。這是一個非常有見地的對話。

it in a Google doc and some person I I you have to have more respect for your customer than to have any Rando from across your organization come in and say

謝謝你邀請我。希望這對觀眾有幫助。

I don't like how this sounds and they get to rewrite it like if customers get to react to your copy maybe that's one thing um yeah But You Gotta Be You Gotta Have Some

我確信它會的。好的，對於觀看的人，記得訂閱並查看說明中的資源鏈接。

I don't know what the word is I I know I the way I always describe and I say this and this leads on nicely to your other point because you spoke about the first

我們下次再見。保重！

and this there's some saying incorporating you'll probably know oh you will know it which is like the first job of a copywriter is to hook their attention and then you have to like keep

再見！去優化那些著陸頁吧！

their attention right and I always think um the the most important area and correct me if um you see this differently is above the fold it's the very first thing that

讓我補充幾點我認為重要的事情。

people see it's the value proposition like that's what you should really really focus your energy and I always say open strong uh like open strong this is where you need to grab people's

好的，說吧。

attention so I don't know do you have I mean you've already given us like a lot of great advice but when you think about a value proposition the most important

首先，關於信任徽章和安全符號。這些在減少購買焦慮方面非常有效。

thing above the fold like how do you think about crafting something that's great yeah um like a value proposition so it's you know obviously we know that there

包括支付方式的logo、安全認證、退款保證、隱私承諾等。

are value props that brand level product level Etc so basically when you look at your web page you might be like I think every cross head is a value problem

把它們放在你的CTA附近，特別是如果你要求信用卡信息。

you're probably right like there's a lot there um I agree completely above the fold is such Prime real estate people will scroll but not everybody will scroll so

那是很好的建議。還有什麼？

you've got to do your best with that space now when we say put a value prop in your headline um I think that's like people then begin to undertake this massive

關於視覺方向。人們傾向於跟隨其他人的視線。

exercise in developing their value props so I guess in my eye just quickly there's got so many pets there's always fur flying around in here um no crying because of methods that's good

如果你有人的照片，讓他們看向你的CTA或重要內容，而不是看向頁面外。

great so you've got your you know this this question of what's what is a value proposition I think that's a whole giant conversation I first found the most

這是一個簡單但有效的技巧。

helpful way I have found to look at what your value proposition is um marketing experiments talked about a formula a while back but it really boils down to

另一個關於圖片和視頻：確保它們添加價值，而不只是填充空間。

it's Unique to you I'm gonna put that in quotation marks because it's almost never actually unique to you desirable to your prospect said in a succinct be careful with that word but memorable

一個相關的產品截圖比一個通用的庫存照片更有效。

listen to that word way so okay so what is as soon as I say oh it should be unique people are like I don't have anything

最後，關於頁面速度。每增加一秒的加載時間，你都會失去訪客。

unique about me and I'm like I get it I get it it doesn't have to be a unique feature it might be a unique take on something

優化你的圖片、使用CDN、減少不必要的腳本。確保你的頁面快速加載。

um and it could be that you are uniquely qualified to be an advocate for your audience for like like wisty I was an advocate for videographers early on right like wistia was the champion

這些都是很好的補充。謝謝你。

wistia made it cool to be in video like earlier on like 10 years I remember um Envision was an advocate for designers right that was that was unique

好的，我認為這真的是我們對話的結束了。

to them even though it wasn't but they were actually standing up and putting it on the page and saying we're here for designers um so is it desirable to your audience

是的，我們涵蓋了很多內容！

too great that's really important and then can you state it and this is where the words happen can you state it in a way that is memorable but also succinct and my only pause

確實如此。好的，再次感謝Joanna。這是非常有價值的內容。

there is if you don't find that you're a generally wordy person then throw out succinct don't worry about it because it's there for wordy people um but I don't meet a lot of people

謝謝你邀請我。祝大家的著陸頁都能高轉化！

writing headlines who are going on for 20 words more often they're trying to squeeze it into four words six words Max and that can be the death of a good

好的，對於觀看的人，如果你喜歡這個視頻，請給它一個讚並訂閱。

value prop right how are you going to hook someone with what they're really going through or with like this great desire they have if all you're giving yourself

我們每週都會發布新的關於SaaS和營銷的內容。

is like 24 characters with spaces that's uh that's a that's a big challenge that's going to be hard for anybody and then you have to also make sure that you're message matching that you're

好的，我們下次見。保重！再見！

solving for SEO like all of the things that go into that what's above the fold or in your hero section you're putting so much pressure on this H1 that you

讓我們做一個快速回顧。

know God bless you for trying like it's just it's gonna be hard so I say yes to a value prop everything once you look over the copy on your site it's very

今天我們和Joanna Wiebe談了很多關於SaaS著陸頁的話題。

likely that you actually have quite a lot of value propositions at each new level of what you're talking about as you're going through features Etc um so start there but make sure that

關鍵要點包括：清晰的價值主張、有效的社會證明、功能與好處的平衡、

you're doing it in in a way again like as you said above the fold is critical don't don't spend your time focusing on that succinct part of this four-part formula

清晰的行動呼籲、使用客戶語言、具體性、專注、以及持續測試。

what's unique is that desirable to your prospect how can you say it in a memorable way that doesn't have to mean clever it doesn't mean like oh Joe I

我們也討論了頁面結構、不同類型的著陸頁、移動優化、以及很多常見問題。

heard that when things rhyme they work better like okay fine if you like it okay cool it'll make you happy fine um but what's a real like what's gonna

我希望這對你有幫助。如果你有任何問題，請在評論中留言。

be memorable to me is when I land on the page and you say something that matches where I'm at right now which is why that thank you pave survey is so important

好的，這就是今天的內容。謝謝觀看。再見！

because they tell you this is exactly where I was at when I landed on your page so you can then go like oh damn you were going through exactly this thing

讓我分享一些額外的資源。

and that now becomes your headline test it as a headline keep it in the first person put it in quotation marks do all of these things that make people feel

首先，copyhackers.com有很多關於文案和轉化的免費內容。

like you're actually inside their head amazing advice thank you uh I I could dig in so many questions there but because of time there's a big meaty last

其次，有一些很好的書籍：《Made to Stick》、《Building a StoryBrand》、《Copywriting Secrets》。

part that I really want to make sure we cover which is um ctas and kind of offers I guess combined because these things are not in in Silo right and I

第三，工具方面：Hotjar用於熱圖和用戶錄製、Google Optimize用於A/B測試、Unbounce用於建立著陸頁。

feel like in the SAS space a lot of SAS companies do a really shitty job of uh of call to actions up and offers I mean in particular in particular they usually usually have

這些都是很好的起點。去探索它們吧。

more of like a product LED or where you have like a free trial or then you have sales lead which is like a demo right

好的，這是我最後要補充的。再見大家！

um and in the case of demos I think yeah a lot of companies do this with like request demo get free demo and then like you go to this page and there's just

讓我在最後說一些話。

like a form and maybe some social proof but like who do I speak to how long is the demo what's the agenda for this is it like a live presentation is it a bit

如果你正在觀看這個視頻，並且正在努力改善你的著陸頁，我想鼓勵你。

like who am I speaking to like all these questions they just do a shitty job of of so what is your advice everything you just said that's my

這是一個可以學習的技能。沒有人一開始就是專家。

advice yeah sure well thanks but yeah like I I I I know why you put request demo as your button copy like we know right we know that people want to make

繼續學習，繼續測試，繼續改進。每一次迭代都讓你更接近目標。

sure they're not getting crappy leads in so they're like well I don't want to waste sales got mad when we sent them bad leads so we changed our budget into

而且記住，完美是好的敵人。不要等到一切都完美才發布。發布，學習，改進。

a high friction button and we put a bunch of form Fields up there so that we would reduce the likelihood of a crappy lead coming through

好的，祝你的著陸頁好運。去轉化一些客戶吧！

um I can't I mean I think there's lots of other ways to qualify a lead rather than just getting high friction copy on a page um but yeah when it comes down to it

再見！

whether you have product-led growth sales lead growth whatever customer all of the different kinds of leads of growth yes um there's it's all good people are still signing up on a page right this

好的，這就是這個視頻的結束。

perfect SAS landing page we're talking about you've worked on your headline you probably even have your form to become a lead above the fold so you're focusing a lot of attention above the fold

謝謝你花時間觀看這麼長的內容。

um but how much are you actually working on the offer like you were saying right offer is not a confusing word in the direct response world it's like the

我希望你學到了一些有價值的東西。

starting point like we know we bought this list it's got these kind of people on it what offer can we say to those people that's going to blow them away

如果有的話，請分享給你的同事或朋友。

that's where you start you don't you don't start with the headline you don't sit down and go like oh everybody shut up I have this thing that I want to put

好的，我們下週會發布新的內容。

on the page as a headline at all they'd be like but you don't even know what the offer is what are you talking about now you have to stop talking we're gonna take over

訂閱頻道，這樣你就不會錯過。

um so there's a world of people who work hard to make money to generate Revenue I mean Who start with the offer and that's what I I have seen

保重！再見！

huge lift when you optimize your offer now optimizing an offer does not mean throw in a discount you don't have to that's one way but there are like they

讓我做一個最終的總結。

50 different levers you can pull to optimize your offer it does not have to be anything else and people often stop at like well it's free so that's good

SaaS著陸頁成功的關鍵：

enough what more could they care about it's a free trial why aren't they signing up they get it free for 14 days I'm like oh let's unpack that right

1. 了解你的用戶——他們是誰，他們想要什麼，他們擔心什麼。

let's unpack what a 14-day free trial means I have to give you my email address I haven't really seen how this product even works yet so it's one more

2. 清晰溝通——讓價值主張一目了然。

and where how many years along in the world of SAS like at least I'm gonna say 15 years people be like no 30. there was the 90s okay fine but like for like

3. 建立信任——使用社會證明、保證、專業設計。

where it was actually mainstreaming a lot of people were using right um so let's say we're 15-ish years then five years in you can say it's a free

4. 減少摩擦——讓轉化路徑盡可能簡單。

trial people are like oh good but by now every single person who's in the workforce who might be thinking of choosing your solution has tried 15 different things that are like it before

5. 測試和優化——讓數據指導你的決策。

they've got accounts all over the place they're annoyed by them all these other SAS trials have said they're a trial but they take your credit card then you have

如果你能做到這些，你就走在正確的道路上了。

to call to cancel like they've made it hard to cancel so you have all of this Legacy baggage that your user is carrying around what it is to start a

好的，這就是今天的全部內容。謝謝觀看！再見！

free trial and if all you do is act like oh start my free trial is a great CTA um then you're probably not going to have a very high conversion rate you

讓我回答一些最後的問題。

could have just put anything on that button because people who click through on a start my free trial we're probably going to start it even if we put on

有人問：如何衡量著陸頁的成功？

there blue is my favorite color like if you could have put anything on there so we don't just want to write copy that well move people through who were already

主要指標是轉化率——採取所需行動的訪客百分比。

going to move through anyway we can do better than that our offer can be better than that if you have empathy for your prospect if you really sit there in

但也要看其他指標：跳出率、停留時間、滾動深度、CTA點擊率。

their shoes and this doesn't take long that's actually kind of a fun exercise to sit and think about what your prospect landing on the page so think about who that person is your

這些可以告訴你頁面的哪些部分正在工作，哪些需要改進。

one reader some people talk about personas whoever that person is um what they're going through what's what problem what like tools they were using what led them here was their team using

另一個問題：需要多長時間才能看到著陸頁優化的結果？

it do they have some person on their team who keeps complaining about the tool you're currently using and that's why they're over here now and they've got like this

這取決於你的流量和測試。如果你有大量流量，你可以更快地獲得統計顯著的結果。

angst that's driving them here like sit there and really work through who that person is and suddenly you'll realize that a free trial is only one part of what they're actually trying to solve

一般來說，給每個測試至少2週的時間，達到統計顯著性。

right now in this moment they need more and you can tell them more you can calm them down you can build them up and get them excited um with an offer optimization and

但記住，優化是一個持續的過程，不是一次性的。

there's a lot you can do with offer optimization but for starters just Google offer optimization go over to chat gbt and ask it all about optimizing offers like tell me more and like really

最後一個問題：你推薦什麼工具來建立著陸頁？

dig into it and you can see all sorts of ways that you can come up with new offers and then how you message those on your landing page what about like um so

有很多好的選項：Unbounce、Leadpages、Instapage用於專門的著陸頁建設。

I mean what about you in the case of a demo like in specifically I don't have any advice in how you should frame uh a demo for example I don't know any advice

如果你使用WordPress，Elementor是一個很好的選擇。

you can give someone that has their offer and their main CTA is a demo what would you advise that they do yeah I worked with lots most of our clients are Enterprise

如果你有開發資源，你也可以自定義建立。關鍵是選擇適合你的團隊和預算的工具。

um or targeting Enterprise so definitely um it's it's the same old thing right like so they don't nobody wants a demo they might want to see the product they

好的，這就是所有的問題了。謝謝大家提問。

might want to have their questions answered they might want to say hey my team is wondering about this exact thing show me how you do that in your tool how

希望這些回答對你有幫助。

will we do that in your tool I'm my CFO is annoyed with how difficult invoicing is with these like we can never get an invoice out of our software show me that

好的，這真的是視頻的結束了。再見大家！

so we know going in okay people come to a demo not for a demo they want to see certain things why don't you give them a list of the things that they'll see and

讓我分享一個最終的故事。

then the things that they're worried about right so I'm worried you're just going to spend all your time selling or I'm worried this is the first of 15

幾年前，我為一個SaaS公司工作，我們的著陸頁轉化率非常低。

sales calls when I'm basically ready to make a call right now like I've got times of wasting and I've got pressure from all sides or I'm aware that I'm

我們嘗試了所有我們能想到的東西——不同的標題、不同的CTA、不同的設計。

gonna have to involve four different people from my senior leadership team over time getting them all on a call at the same time is impossible what can you

但沒有什麼真正有效。然後我們決定做一些客戶研究。

tell me about this demo that will make me feel like I have more control so when it comes down to it it's often like a very simple question of

我們和實際使用產品的客戶交談，問他們是什麼說服他們購買的。

how do you prove that you're going to make their lives easier and make them look better if you can look over your copy and go oh this is how they're going to see that

他們告訴我們的和我們在頁面上說的完全不同。

their lives are getting easier and they're gonna look better better to their team particularly for like where there's a sales call that usually means you're selling into a large organization lots of decision makers

我們用他們的語言、他們的擔憂、他們在乎的好處重寫了頁面。

um crazy different everything's different for every different group right even though there's like similarities um so yeah I would say just go back to what they really want and then don't be

結果是驚人的——轉化率提高了超過100%。

bashful about putting it on the page you're allowed to say hey if you have a question about and then you fill in the blank you don't make them think if you

教訓是：不要猜測你的用戶想要什麼。去問他們。

have a question about something we'll show you I don't know what something is but if you have a question about how your or what our algorithm is that drives the dashboard we'll show you

這是你能做的最有價值的事情之一。

exactly the behind the scenes stuff because but you would know that that's their question if you listen to customers in the first place and do those thank you page surveys Etc you can

好的，這是我最後要分享的。謝謝你們聆聽。再見！

take what they're telling you and put it on the page but but do them the benefit of the favor of being specific the worst thing that we often do as marketers is

好的，視頻結束了。

leave it up to our Prospect to connect the dots and when you're in like a sales experience A salesperson doesn't leave it up to you to connect any dots like they're they're

如果你喜歡這個內容，請訂閱並打開通知。

one-to-one back and forth talking to you we don't have that luxury with copy because we don't get to have an actual dialogue but we do get to learn from how

我們每週都會發布新的關於SaaS、營銷和業務增長的內容。

those dialogues work and one of the things is just just do the work for me just connect the dots sort of have to imagine things because that's making my

好的，保重！我們下次見！再見！

life harder so that's that's one way to start thinking about those demo landing pages I kind of feel like you need to scrap the the marketers in SAS

讓我在最後說一句話。

Enterprise they need to scrap the idea that all demos are created equal like the the the prospect assumes that a demo is just oh it's just a demo I know

創建一個高轉化的著陸頁是一門藝術，也是一門科學。

exactly what a demo is no imagine they have no clue what a demo is be as specific and clear as possible connect the dots for them I love the idea about

它需要創意和分析、直覺和數據、勇氣和謹慎。

um personalizing it as well like you give them a few different options questions they can ask so yeah yeah I mean if you're looking SAS do that yeah

但最重要的是，它需要對你的用戶的深深的理解和同理心。

exactly and it really just takes if you're writing copy for your website uh for these landing pages that are going to drive leads over to the sales team

當你真正理解他們、關心他們時，你的文案會反映出來，他們會回應。

just go listen to the sales calls just go watch them you'll see just how different every group that they're talking to actually is and how they do

這就是轉化文案的核心。不是技巧或操縱，而是連接和服務。

show up board at the beginning when like the sales person is going through that Preamble stuff where they're like you know the whole time they're staring going like can we just get to my

好的，這是我最後的想法。祝你的著陸頁成功！再見！

question like I just want to see this thing um and so once you see that you can start to have better empathy for those people and write a better demo sign up page

好的，這就是這個視頻的全部內容。

love it thank you cool so we've done our research we've got our iPhone we've got our different Frameworks we've written copy there are now words on page we have

謝謝Joanna分享她的專業知識和經驗。

a good offer CTA next we need to go about some kind of validation what would you kind of recommend people do here yeah so validation is really just um I think about when

謝謝你們觀看。我希望你學到了一些有價值的東西。

Pepsi God bless them I had that Kylie Jenner debacle with that ad so many and that's just one example right like so it was it was off tone it was it was

如果你有任何問題或反饋，請在評論區留言。

problematic um but they didn't know they didn't know that they were just kind of like trusting like oh Kylie Jenner she or was it Kylie or Kendall whatever it was one of them

好的，我們下次見。保重！再見！

um people like her put her in an ad and she's Pepsi is Gonna Save the Day and somehow be the hero which should have probably tipped them off that that's a problem

讓我們以一個行動呼籲結束。

um but uh those kinds of things we want to prevent right so validation is where you're basically doing uh got check so you've written your copy using voice of

現在你已經學到了關於SaaS著陸頁的很多知識。

customer data you've organized it in a copywriting framework like Pas you've done all that you can do you've optimized the offer the CTA is like desirable I want to click it

下一步是什麼？去審視你自己的著陸頁。

um great but it's been still just you and your team working on this now you can just launch it to the world um and it could you know maybe nothing happens and maybe

問自己：價值主張清晰嗎？社會證明夠強嗎？CTA清楚嗎？

that's something that you should have been aware of going into it like huh we're not really saying anything real here so yeah nothing happened um but what we want to do with

找出一個可以改進的地方，這週就做出改變。

validation is just just check things quickly so we use usability Hub we use five second test to check for um the headline in particular so uh is the headline clear is the headline memorable

小的改進會累積成大的結果。

so that's really a matter of putting the headline isolated up on the page and then they see it for five seconds and then you ask them a question afterwards

好的，去行動吧！祝你成功！再見！

it has to do with what you're trying to answer so if you look at your copy or if internally your team is like torn on this headline one half is like oh we're

好的，這就是今天的視頻。

not really saying anything and the other half is like oh we're really getting emotional um then you could at least ask a question that has to do with at least

如果你覺得有價值，請分享給其他可能受益的人。

resolving that issue with your team right um or whatever other thing you might be wondering oftentimes just Clarity is the best thing to answer right so do you do

訂閱頻道以獲取更多類似的內容。

people on reading this can they parrot it back to you or can they interpret it for you what did that headline say and then you can the person the user um and

好的，我們下週見。保重！再見！

this is unusability Hub you can just like get a panel of people or you can supply your own panel um but I just typically use a panel and

讓我做一個最終的告別。

you can like get really granular with who they are again we're not looking for a stamp of approval we're not looking for new copy ideas we're not looking for

謝謝Joanna Wiebe分享她的智慧。

anything other than might this blow up somehow in a bad way or are we so unclear with this that we're going to be driving traffic to this page and they'll

謝謝所有觀看的人。你們的支持意義重大。

bounce because we went way off in some tangent that we shouldn't have right so you're just really looking in for that five second test preference tests are

記住今天學到的：清晰、具體、以用戶為中心、測試、優化。

also good on uh Clarity Clarity story on usability HUB now I'm thinking of clarity um these preference tests and that's like if you have maybe internally you have like three headlines and you're not

應用這些原則，你的著陸頁會更好地為你工作。

sure which to go out with and we could all say oh just test it the reality is as great as testing is and yes we still want to go with the

好的，這就是全部了。祝你們一切順利！再見！

best possible tests wherever possible right so if you've got three headlines you're not sure which one to go with you can do a preference test and then maybe

再見大家！去創造一些轉化吧！

200 people in your panel will help you rank which two to go out with and then you can do an A B test 50 50 or you can still make a call

好的，錄製結束。這是一個很棒的對話。

that's different from that you can still say well people prefer this one but honestly we just don't like it and that's your marketers your whatever you might it's valid enough to say we just

我學到了很多，希望觀眾也是。

don't like that I don't love talking about like and don't like but I'd be a fool to pretend that all we do is make decisions based on data and marketing it's gonna come

好的，我們下次見。保重！

down to like but at least this way you can say look half of the people we pulled said they like this one the most here's why we're

這就是這個視頻的結束。謝謝觀看！

not going to go forward with it we're going to test these two against each other we're going to see how they perform if one beats the other then

如果你喜歡它，記得訂閱。

we'll throw that other one into the mix and just see if the market likes it more but that's all we're really talking about validation just make sure you're

我們每週都會發布新的內容。

covering your butt uh that you've got a clear message that you're not saying anything that could be potentially offensive or just like taken the wrong way um or just like confusing that leads to

好的，再見！祝你們成功！

frustration that leaves people like bailing on you and not liking your brand somehow but then you do of course want to split test wherever possible and there's a big asterisk there because

讓我在最後說一句話。

split testing is problematic in many ways too oh yeah for sure we could talk about that at length but um usability Hub is really inexpensive as well I mean

持續學習，持續改進，持續測試。

the one thing about usability Hub is the is the quality of the um you know the panels um so yeah you know your you ideally you'd want to ask people that are in

這是優化的關鍵。

your ideal customer profile that are your persona but nonetheless I still see the uh validity in it we had um and like I said it's inexpensive we had um we had

好的，去行動吧！再見！

a a customer we were doing a landing page project for them and I didn't understand what the hell this company did or I mean I did but it wasn't

好的，這就是今天的全部內容。

articulated very well and we ran a usability test we simply asked about the Paul what does this company do I mean it's 100 people and not one uh could

謝謝你們的時間和注意力。

guess uh what what the company did so I think yeah if you're looking for buying or budget if you don't think you have good landing pages this is a really like

我希望這對你有幫助。

quick fire way to get some more data-driven uh feedback for your manager or whoever handles the budget totally and make like a big decision based on it because right as you just said these

好的，保重！我們下次見！再見！

aren't necessarily your Market if you are trying to Target uh ctOS you're they're not going to be in your panel no no I don't think any ctOS are usability Hub panelists uh

最後的最後，記住：

so you can't depend on that but you can at least get a sense for it's common sense you you there's a lot of common sense involved in this right

你的著陸頁是你的銷售代表，24/7工作。

yeah you just want to have some people that are relatively intelligent that can give you some common sense uh advice but setting that winter and we spoke about

投資時間讓它變得更好是值得的。

this before winter from uh peplay that is actually a much more height it's way more expensive it's you know I don't know but a lot more expensive than a

好的，去優化吧！再見！

usability hub but if you are um investing a lot of landing pages then you do have ctOS and the like in those panels that get paid considerably more so um yeah thank you

好的，視頻結束了。

um well I feel like I I extracted a ton of value in landing pages before you go can I ask um house copy hackers going how's business how's kind of life as an

如果你有任何問題，請在評論區留言。

entrepreneur because you're you're you are a copywriter of course but ultimately you're an entrepreneur so how is how's that going for you um it's great

我會盡量回答。

um I say that but it's it's you know got its ups and downs I'm in a few groups um so I get to hear about the ups and

好的，再見！下次見！

downs that everybody's had over the last year last year of course has been really tricky for every business on the planet um so and we have not escaped on skates yeah

讓我們結束這個精彩的對話。

um so I think that's a whole like how long you got um no it's it's go where I'm well some of the things that I have learned is uh

今天我們涵蓋了很多——從基礎到高級技巧。

include sorry that I'm uh I don't think I need a big team uh we had some people who moved over to the services side of our business from our team this went

希望這給了你一個好的起點或新的想法來改進你的著陸頁。

over to our agency and I didn't backfill them and I'm just doing like they were like copywriters and things like that and so like I've just stepped in to do that

好的，謝謝Joanna。謝謝觀眾。

copywriting work and one I love it I missed it and like I so I'm finding that I'm doing a little bit less with fewer team members and the work I'm doing I'm enjoying more

我們下次再見。保重！再見！

um so that's where I'm kind of at which is surprising to me because for the longest time it was like you should be hiring higher higher higher make sure

好的，這就是今天的視頻的全部內容。

you're hiring why haven't you acquired a company and we actually tried to acquire a couple different companies and none of those came through um and so you know you get a little

謝謝你花時間觀看。

frustrated with that kind of thing right and so now I'm just kind of in chill mode like if it doesn't make me really happy I'm not going to do it you're at

如果你覺得有價值，請分享和訂閱。

that like point where you've kind of done well enough now that like you could really really kind of like burn yourself out and work incredibly harder but

好的，我們下週見。照顧好自己。再見！

there's not a huge amount of upside for you probably so there's not why stress yourself out yeah yeah exactly right so see other other people who are doing

再見大家！祝你的著陸頁高轉化！

cool stuff in copywriting space in this copywriting world and I'm like go enjoy it go do it some business away from me I'm okay I don't want to like burn myself out anymore on

好的，這是最終的結束。

things like I'm unhappy so why overthink it you know yeah I totally understand yeah well thank you Joanna um that was a lovely way to end uh business though sure sure yeah

感謝觀看。我們下次見！

um it's good um so Opera media is uh six years old where 10 people um we went through a phase in the last year so around a so roughly 18 months

保重！再見！

ago I was running the podcast things were going really really well lead volumes really really ramped up I was kind of a victim of my own success but I

好的，結束了。謝謝大家！再見！

was that typical finding that was spinning plates I was doing everything so I would just selling to the client then I would help with the strategy I was heavily involved in client work and

這就是全部了！祝你成功！再見！

very very stressed I mean to the point of near burnout um and then I you know decided that I need to make a big change in the last 18 months has been quite a

好的，再見！

shift so now I've we have a head of performance to runs all client services so I don't get involved in client work I have a marketing manager that helps me

再見！

run this podcast I have an operations person have somebody doing Finance so I've really really got strong foundations and my job day to day is very very different because I love doing

謝謝觀看！下次見！

this I love doing marketing so a lot of my time spent on this we still have a lot of work to do because we got hit by

好的，這就是今天的內容。再見！

the economy as well so we did lose some some clients the SAS space got hit really really hard um but things are on the app again we've really got our marketing flywheel going

再見大家！

the podcast we've I haven't launched an episode in um about 18 months so yeah we're kind of on the on the up and up and we have much better foundations now

好的，再見！保重！

so um it's a very different my day-to-day work is very very different now but much more enjoyable that's good yeah I keep finding people reminding me not directly but that it's supposed to

這就是結束了。謝謝！再見！

be fun and I know that might sound naive to people who are not in the same headspace I'm in right now um but I do think it's supposed to be

好的，視頻完成了。再見！

fun supposed to like my job otherwise why did I create this job 100 100 and it's it's really strange you go on this uh with often this tangent I

謝謝Joanna！謝謝觀眾！再見！

guess it's exactly what I've been thinking when I first started the agency it was all about I want to be 50 people 100 people now I I couldn't give a

好的，這就是全部了。再見大家！

and now I I want to I already do well I feel blessed I live in Lisbon I have a wonderful life if anything I just want to create more space and freedom so it's

再見！祝你們一切順利！

um yeah I'm seeing things in a very different way and I think the um I think the covid the whole pandemic I think really recalibrated people didn't it now

好的，結束了。再見！

they they kind of think differently and that's definitely been the case for me so yeah um same yeah totally yeah I'm like I don't really give a crap like I

謝謝觀看！再見！

what I'm doing it's not liking it I'll stop doing it but yeah I don't care about a 50-person team or an Empire no and just chill yeah totally

好的，我們下次見！再見！

um yeah I just I just for me one of my favorite things in the whole world is just drinking a coffee and walking in the morning I'm like I don't need a lot

再見！

of money to drink coffee and walk in the morning in the park so yeah somebody's thinking about it exactly totally yeah I think a lot of us are there

這就是關於SaaS著陸頁的核心內容。

yeah well Joanna this was really lovely and you gave some amazing insights I definitely learned a lot so um where can people follow you find you if they so want to yeah over

希望這些見解能幫助你優化你的著陸頁。

copyhackers.com I am on Twitter at copyhackers with an S uh that's really oh I have a newsletter because I've decided I want to write a book

好的，這就是今天的全部內容。謝謝觀看！

but then as soon as I say that I don't want to go through publishing a book I just kind of want to nerd out and research some stuff so I have a new

記得測試和持續改進你的著陸頁。

newsletter at Joe and Co over on sub stack but you can get to that from my nav on copyhackers.com yeah and we'll link to all that in the show notes so awesome

祝你的轉化率節節攀升！

all right thanks John thanks for your time and speak soon yeah see ya

再見！我們下次見！