welcome to subscription Heroes I'm your host Scott herf co-founder and CPO of TurnKey in this episode I sit down with Joanna weeb she's the OG conversion copywriter and creator of copy hackers

歡迎來到Subscription Heroes，我是你的主持人Scott Herf，TurnKey的聯合創始人兼首席產品官。在這一集中，我與Joanna Wiebe對談，她是OG轉化文案專家和Copy Hackers的創辦人

Joanna is an incredible teacher through her great content and many courses and has worked with companies like canva Intuit and meadowlab to up their conversion game we'll discuss the role of AI and

Joanna是一位出色的老師，透過她的優質內容和眾多課程。她曾與Canva、Intuit和Meadowlab等公司合作提升他們的轉化表現。我們將討論AI的角色以及

copywriting what you need to be doing to convert more leads into clients with your writing and their most ridiculous tactic within conversion copywriting that works but really shouldn't thanks

文案寫作，你需要做什麼才能用你的寫作將更多潛在客戶轉化為客戶，以及他們在轉化文案中最荒謬但確實有效的策略。謝謝

and enjoy the show alright so you have a superpower and I love to start out by talking about conversion copywriting um would you mind defining that for audiences you know that that know you

並享受這個節目。好的，所以你有一個超能力，我想先從討論轉化文案開始。你介意為觀眾定義一下嗎，你知道，對那些認識你

and maybe don't know you yet sure yeah totally so conversion copywriting is very simply copy or words that gets the yes so copy that gets the yes where the

或還不認識你的人？當然，好的，沒問題。所以轉化文案很簡單，就是獲得「是」的文字或語句，所以能獲得「是」的文字，這個

yes is whatever you're trying to get people to do so are they trying to you want them to buy something that's the yes you're looking for your copy should

「是」就是你想讓人們做的事情。所以是你想讓他們買東西嗎？那就是你尋找的「是」。你的文案應該

help make that possible is it a lead whatever it might be that yes you want to get um conversion copywriting exists to have a more direct line to that thing

幫助實現這一點。是潛在客戶，或是其他任何你想獲得的「是」。轉化文案的存在是為了更直接地達到那個目標

and I feel like this is a bit of a leading question but it is actually so I I think in some circles there are negative associations for to writing copy that's meant to close

我覺得這有點像誘導性問題，但實際上確實是。我認為在某些圈子裡，對於旨在成交的文案寫作有負面聯想

um you know Founders operators marketers who maybe haven't studied copywriting and I just I still wonder why that exists and have you found any answers out there in the field doing this for so

你知道，創辦人、運營者、營銷人員可能沒有學過文案寫作，我只是想知道為什麼會這樣存在，你在這個領域做了這麼久有發現任何答案嗎

long I don't know what you're talking about I understand um you know there's the I'm in a good mood answer and I'm in a bad mood answer

我不知道你在說什麼。我理解。你知道，這有心情好的答案和心情不好的答案

um I'm in a good mood however I I can't help thinking of the reason that I think that's true that there's a negative association there um is because people who think that haven't

我心情很好，但是我忍不住想到我認為這是真的原因，為什麼會有負面聯想，是因為這樣想的人沒有

actually seen copy work except for that one time they bought that crappy thing that they didn't mean to buy but for some reason they felt compelled to buy

真正看到文案起作用，除了那一次他們買了那個爛東西，他們本來不想買，但不知為何覺得被迫要買

it and they're like that's that's what copy does makes me buy things I don't want and there's this fear of um you know this prevailing notion that good

然後他們就想：這就是文案的作用，讓我買我不想要的東西。還有這種恐懼，你知道，這種普遍的觀念認為好的

sales people are meant to separate fools from their money I think there's like just there's ugliness around the idea of sales in some cases for good reasons some people have abused things and it's

銷售人員就是要把傻子的錢騙走。我覺得在某些情況下，銷售這個概念週圍有一種醜陋感，有些人確實濫用了一些東西，這很糟糕

awful but but it's like I look at all of the founders I know who want to get great results and marketers who want to get great results product leads who want all of these

但我看看我認識的所有想要獲得好結果的創辦人、想要獲得好結果的營銷人員、想要所有這些的產品負責人

things you can tell them exactly what to do but there's still this sense of like no I'll do it my way and then it doesn't

你可以告訴他們確切該怎麼做，但仍然有這種感覺：不，我會用我自己的方式，然後它就沒有

work and I think it just goes back to a fear of looking like you're a salesperson and a lack of experience actually seeing people convert when you write copy that converts and isn't skeezy

效果。我認為這歸結於對看起來像銷售人員的恐懼，以及缺乏實際看到人們轉化的經驗，當你寫的文案能轉化且不令人反感時

right and and by not being deliberate in that you're doing yourself a disservice and potential customers as well you know they're not getting the full story yeah that's the thing I don't understand that

對的，而且如果不刻意這樣做，你是在傷害自己，也傷害潛在客戶，你知道，他們沒有得到完整的故事。是的，這就是我不理解的事情

like I I a lot of pushback from us uacular and I love ux people I was in ux copywriting for a good chunk of my time out into it

就像，我從UX那邊收到很多反對意見，我很喜歡UX的人，我在Intuit的時候有一大段時間在做UX文案

um until I discovered like oh wait wait we can really get people to like convert like we can actually tap into something but there's this idea I think

直到我發現哦等等，我們真的可以讓人們轉化，我們可以實際觸動一些東西。但我認為有這個想法

around ux at ux and Persuasion don't meet um and that ux should always Prevail and ux is the voice of the user and I'm like okay fair

關於UX，UX和說服不會相遇，而且UX應該永遠佔優勢，UX是用戶的聲音，我想說好吧公平

um but that doesn't like if you if you are the voice of the user the user has arrived on your website or has opened your email or gone into your app even not because

但那不像...如果你是用戶的聲音，用戶來到你的網站或打開你的電子郵件或甚至進入你的應用程式，不是因為

they're hoping nothing will change in their lives and they'll stay exactly as they are maybe things will get worse like they're not hoping for that they're hoping for something better and if

他們希望生活中什麼都不會改變，他們會保持原樣，也許事情會變更糟。他們不希望那樣，他們希望更好的東西，如果

you've got visitors coming to your site it you owe it to them to help connect them with the solution that they're looking for most of us B2B SAS in

你有訪客來到你的網站，你有責任幫助他們找到他們正在尋找的解決方案。我們大多數B2B SaaS，

particular which is almost all SAS you have almost like no excuse if you have a user focused approach if you're user-centric then your job is to give users what they're there for knowing

特別是這幾乎是所有SaaS，你幾乎沒有藉口。如果你有以用戶為中心的方法，如果你是以用戶為中心的，那麼你的工作就是給用戶他們來這裡要的東西，知道

that they haven't arrived on whatever website you have.com in order to browse like they can go to tick tock for that man like you don't have to worry about that

他們不是來到你的whatever.com網站只是為了瀏覽。他們可以去TikTok做那個，你不用擔心那個

um so yeah it's up to us to convert people and I'm just worried that I or I have seen at least that there's pushback for everybody who's like users just want

所以是的，轉化人們是我們的責任，我只是擔心我看到過至少有反對意見，對於所有說用戶只想

to come here and do X and stop getting in their way and I'm like we're not getting in their way we're absolutely helping them um but there's just that conflict there

來這裡做X，不要擋他們的路的人，我想說我們沒有擋路，我們絕對是在幫助他們，但就是有那個衝突

right which shouldn't be because we're both operating with the best interest for the user in mind yeah I I do uh shamefully admit yeah as a dad

對的，這不應該是這樣，因為我們都是在為用戶的最佳利益著想。是的，我慚愧地承認，作為一個

of three tired at night I have been caught browsing B2B SAS websites uh over Tick Tock so just like for fun there's that what's new in project management

三個孩子的爸爸，晚上很累，我曾被發現在瀏覽B2B SaaS網站而不是TikTok，就像是為了好玩。專案管理軟體有什麼新的

software yeah you know like what's uh what's the latest we've moved past intercom you know blue what's the latest uh in fashion here right fascinating

是的你知道的，最新的是什麼，我們已經過了Intercom了，你知道的，最新流行的是什麼？有趣

um yeah I mean I mean yeah to that point you don't want to waste people's time um but by not but by not moving them to the yes moving them to the completion

是的，我的意思是，說到這點，你不想浪費人們的時間，但如果不把他們推向那個「是」，推向完成

step or whatever um fulfilling your promise you are wasting their time yeah that's the greater waste of time yeah they came to you looking for something and you were

步驟或其他什麼，實現你的承諾，你就是在浪費他們的時間。是的，那才是更大的時間浪費。是的，他們來找你尋找某些東西，而你

so sure that they didn't want anything you have and that if you even tried to give them that thing they would retaliate that you just didn't give them

是如此確信他們不想要你擁有的任何東西，如果你甚至試圖給他們那個東西，他們會報復，所以你就是不給他們

the thing you're so sure you're going to waste their time that you just don't do anything it's like well maybe you shouldn't be in charge of this then

那個東西。你是如此確信你會浪費他們的時間，所以你什麼都不做。那麼也許你不應該負責這件事

because if you are going to waste their time then no you don't belong there but they're they've got time or they wouldn't be on your site they may not

因為如果你真的會浪費他們的時間，那麼是的，你不屬於那裡。但他們有時間，否則他們不會在你的網站上。他們可能沒有

have a million years but good copy isn't asking them to spend a million years but it will actually cause them generally to spend a little more time in order to

一百萬年的時間，但好的文案不是要求他們花一百萬年，但它實際上通常會讓他們花更多一點時間來

take the right action right right and I wonder if part of it too is this tendency to um kind of be hands off I wonder if it's because Tech has become so so insular

採取正確的行動。對對。我想知道部分原因是否也是這種傾向於放手不管。我想知道是否因為科技已經變得如此封閉

and and you know everyone's copying each other and everyone takes cues from from big companies like Apple and Google and how they copyright you know Apple is

而且你知道每個人都在互相抄襲，每個人都從大公司如Apple和Google那裡獲取靈感，以及他們如何寫文案。你知道Apple

very terse and clever and you know I looked at the past and I looked at what's that Apple writes long copy like I that's my biggest shocker is the

非常簡潔和聰明。你知道我看了過去，我看了...什麼？Apple寫長文案。這是我最大的震驚，就是

things people are willing to ignore in order because of their own confirmation bias so they're around they're looking oh I want to do what Apple does go do a

人們願意因為他們自己的確認偏見而忽視的事情。所以他們說哦我想做Apple做的事情，去做一個

word count on any Apple product page and it it goes and it goes and they've done good things like with you know the interactivity in order to reveal

任何Apple產品頁面的字數統計，它會一直持續下去。他們做了一些好事，比如你知道的互動性來展示

messages to you as you're scrolling and then like combination with the design with the product you're looking at but that's some long copy and it always has

當你滾動時顯示給你的訊息，然後像是與設計和你正在看的產品的結合，但那是一些長文案，它一直都是這樣

been it's shocking to me yeah anyway I didn't mean to interrupt you but I I always I people say apple apple does it this way I want to do like apple and they

對我來說這很震驚。是的，不管怎樣我不是要打斷你，但我總是...人們說Apple這樣做，我想像Apple一樣做，但他們

never want to do it like apple in the end well it's and and maybe that wasn't the best example but it you prove a point though where apple has a

最後從來不想像Apple那樣做。而且那可能不是最好的例子，但你證明了一點，Apple有

reputation for being minimalist and clever and Punchy and all these things but they're they're actually they're actually not they just distract you from it yeah they're hard for the experience yeah

極簡主義、聰明和有力的聲譽，以及所有這些東西，但他們實際上不是這樣，他們只是讓你分心。是的，他們努力營造體驗。是的

um but yeah I was just going to bring up I mean um I personally love when I get the chance to doing landing pages or emails

但是是的，我只是想提一下，我個人很喜歡當我有機會做登陸頁面或電子郵件的時候

or whatever and you know I kind of like the the sales letter style you know it's it's it's potentially seen as longer winded but you know I think of like the old ads

或其他什麼的，你知道我有點喜歡銷售信的風格，你知道它可能被認為比較囉嗦，但你知道我想到像舊廣告

like the the beetle the lemon uh Volkswagen ad from the 60s um and and it feels like that sort of thing is frowned upon and and they they had the chance to tell a

像甲殼蟲、檸檬那個60年代的福斯廣告，感覺那種東西被看不起了，他們有機會講述一個

story they had a chance and they had to Target in mind always right and but you have the classic you know pain dream fix structure and all that you don't get a

故事，他們有機會，而且他們始終有一個目標受眾。對的，但你有經典的，你知道，痛點、夢想、解決方案的結構等等，你沒有

lot of room to do that in you know two sentences so I I mean do you think do you think there's a reason why the industry has moved away from that or

很多空間在兩句話中做到這些。所以我的意思是你認為行業為什麼遠離這種做法，或者

it's falling out of favor or um is it alive and well in certain areas what do you think I think it's a live and well with companies and this might

它正在失寵嗎？或者它在某些領域活得很好？你怎麼看？我認為它在真正相信自己故事的公司裡活得很好，這可能

sound bad but companies that really believe in their story I think they're willing to talk all day long if I I've met a lot of people who are writing for

聽起來不好，但真正相信自己故事的公司，我認為他們願意整天談論，如果...我遇到很多在為

brands that they don't believe in and you can tell when you read the copy but there was one oh gosh I meant to recall it before we started talking and then

他們不相信的品牌寫作的人，你讀文案就能看出來。但有一個，天哪，我本來想在我們開始談話之前想起來，然後

it's in my inbox but um there's a brand that does denim denim like for jeans and they send these emails that are not long copy but they're long

它在我的收件箱裡，但有一個做牛仔布的品牌，牛仔布就是做牛仔褲的，他們發送的這些電子郵件不是長文案，但它們很長

um they're and they're telling the story of the particular denim in question so hey we've just released 250 new pairs of jeans that use this Denim and then they

它們在講述特定牛仔布的故事，所以嘿我們剛發布了250條使用這種牛仔布的新牛仔褲，然後他們

tell you about it the history of it where it was made why it's so interesting um and they don't go on Ad nauseam they actually just like put a single short

告訴你它的歷史，它在哪裡製造，為什麼它這麼有趣，他們不會無休止地講下去，他們實際上只是放一個短的

sentence then a line break then another single short sentence but it keeps you reading down the page in an old school like long copy sort of way um and that's like kind of breakthrough

句子，然後換行，然後另一個短句子。但它讓你一直往下讀頁面，像是老派的長文案那樣，這是一種突破

right it's more interesting now I know like there's a history to my genes like there's more to Denim than stretchy versus like not stretchy um and so I'm like I feel more educated

對的，現在更有趣了。我知道像我的牛仔褲有一段歷史，牛仔布比彈性對比非彈性有更多內容，所以我覺得更有知識了

I feel more thoughtful as a consumer and then when I buy them I feel like really proud of it and it feels like those people are excited about their product

我覺得作為消費者更有思考，然後當我買它們的時候我覺得真的很驕傲，感覺那些人對他們的產品很興奮

and they believe they've got an audience out there where there are customers waiting to happen or already happened in that audience that care about this stuff and you can tell right and so the

他們相信那裡有觀眾，有等待成為客戶的人或已經是客戶的人在那個觀眾中，關心這些東西，你可以看出來。所以

companies that don't really care or don't really get excited about their own work I think that ends up being the stuff that gets really chopped down now that's not the

不太在意或對自己工作不太興奮的公司，我認為那些最終會被大幅刪減。但那不是

only reason I think that some people don't use long copies some Brands a lot of Brands don't use long copy I think there's also the problem of like your

唯一的原因，我認為有些人不使用長文案，有些品牌，很多品牌不使用長文案，我認為還有一個問題是你的

CMO who or the final approver on copy has a crisis of confidence and thinks oh we better keep it short because we really don't have again this goes back

CMO或文案的最終批準者有信心危機，認為哦我們最好保持簡短，因為我們真的沒有...這又回到

to do you really believe in your product we don't really have anything cool that we're selling here like no one would care about this enough to read it is

你真的相信你的產品嗎？我們這裡賣的東西真的沒什麼酷的，沒有人會在意到想讀它，這

what you're really saying when you're saying nobody reads online so I feel like top at the top you have to have leadership in place that's like this is

就是你說沒人在網上閱讀時真正在說的。所以我覺得在頂層你必須有這樣的領導：這是

our brand this is we're amazing our customers of course are amazing and they're going to be the real hero in the stories that we tell um but we have to believe that we are

我們的品牌，我們很棒，我們的客戶當然也很棒，他們將是我們講述的故事中真正的英雄，但我們必須相信我們是

awesome and when you do I think you're more willing to tell the story and spend more words on it because people should be as excited as you are

很棒的，當你這樣做的時候，我認為你更願意講述故事並花更多的文字，因為人們應該像你一樣興奮

yeah I love how you put that in in the it's a reminder too that you're you're never really done telling your story uh as a brand or about your products and

是的，我喜歡你這樣說，這也提醒我們，作為一個品牌或關於你的產品，你永遠講不完你的故事，而且

you know I mean when you were telling the story about the jeans I was just thinking uh you know I mean if you're around your friends that's maybe a point of

你知道我的意思，當你在講牛仔褲的故事時，我在想，你知道我的意思，如果你和朋友在一起，那可能是一個

conversation at one point and you've just become an evangelist for that brand right just because they told you you know the denim came from this Mill or whatever you know let's take a little

聊天話題的切入點，你就變成了那個品牌的傳道者，就因為他們告訴你，你知道的，牛仔布來自這個工廠或什麼的。你知道讓我們

break to tell you about chernky the ones making this podcast happen now I think shrinky is awesome but I am super biased because I'm a co-founder but I love what

暫停一下來介紹TurnKey，這個播客的贊助商。現在我認為TurnKey很棒，但我超級有偏見，因為我是聯合創始人。但我喜歡

we're doing for subscription companies you might look at your churn numbers and think there's got to be a way to turn this around there's got to be someone

我們為訂閱公司做的事情。你可能看著你的流失數字在想肯定有辦法扭轉這個局面，肯定有人

who can improve retention and help us track down why people are leaving your product and that's why turnkey's here TurnKey is the only platform that fixes every type of churn for you

可以改善留存率，幫助我們追蹤為什麼人們離開你的產品，這就是TurnKey存在的原因。TurnKey是唯一一個為你解決每種類型流失的平臺

we handle retention for customer obsessed teams like Jasper fair drop AI dungeon and castos we lower cancellations by up to 42 percent recover up to 89 of Phila payments and even increase customer LTV

我們為像Jasper、Fair Drop、AI Dungeon和Castos這樣以客戶為中心的團隊處理留存問題。我們將取消率降低高達42%，恢復高達89%的失敗付款，甚至將客戶LTV提高

by 28 and we do it with our user-friendly customer-centric cancel flows modern failed payment recovery and AI driven feedback analysis so if you want to run a healthier subscription business head to

28%。我們用用戶友好的以客戶為中心的取消流程、現代化的失敗付款恢復和AI驅動的反饋分析來做到這一點。所以如果你想經營一個更健康的訂閱業務，請前往

turnkey.com to get started I remember um you had a project back in 2017 um and this is if this is two out of date feel free to to you know realign me here but

turnkey.com開始。我記得你在2017年有一個項目，這如果太過時了請隨時糾正我，但

um you had a similar project um or tasked with wistia's onboarding emails where you went in and punched him up a bit rounded out the story uh a lot of

你有一個類似的項目，或被委託處理Wistia的入職電子郵件，你進去優化了一下，完善了故事，很多

disbelief that they worked but they found greater engagement and and were successful right yeah yeah and engagement yes but like 3.5 times the paid conversions by the end

人不相信它們有效，但他們發現有更高的參與度，而且成功了對吧？是的是的，而且是參與度，是的，但像是在最後有3.5倍的付費轉化

um and we weren't their internal cro Andrew Kaplan who's moved on since then but uh stayed there for a couple years after anyway um he ran the test uh so there's nothing

而且我們不是他們的內部CRO，Andrew Kaplan後來離開了，但在那之後還待了幾年。不管怎樣他跑了這個測試，所以沒有什麼

but good significance and confidence all around it um but yeah this the wistia emails in this case the wistia I'll just quickly give some background on the story wistia

問題，都有很好的顯著性和置信度。但是是的，這個Wistia電子郵件，在這種情況下，Wistia我快速介紹一下背景，Wistia

video hosting platform which we love and use have used for I think since I think since they basically launched on Hacker News 10 years ago or something maybe longer

視頻託管平臺，我們喜歡並使用過，我想從他們基本上在Hacker News上發布10年前或更久開始

um so we love them we got a chance to I got a chance to just go in and rewrite some of their or emails they had this their onboarding sequence at the time

所以我們很喜歡他們，我有機會進去重寫他們的一些郵件。他們當時有這個入職序列

was three parts so it was like your initial sign up then you once you once you reach a certain point then the new the second flow triggers and once you're

是三個部分，所以就像你最初註冊，然後一旦你達到某個點，第二個流程就會觸發，一旦你

ready you're basically a sales qualified lead but without but with like product LED growth so your hyper marketing qualified lead um then you'd go into this third flow so

準備好了，你基本上是一個銷售合格的潛在客戶，但像是產品導向增長，所以你是超級營銷合格的潛在客戶，然後你會進入這個第三個流程，所以

I worked on that third flow the one that's closely tied to the where the yes is let's get some money today let's actually make money out of these emails

我處理了第三個流程，那個與「是」密切相關的，讓我們今天賺些錢，讓我們真正從這些電子郵件中賺錢

um and so I love working on those who doesn't love to work closest to a carton checkout for sure yeah so I went in I worked with them on these they had their

所以我喜歡處理那些。誰不喜歡離購物車結賬最近的工作呢？當然。是的，所以我進去和他們合作，他們有自己的

control I think had eight emails I tested a new set uh uh eight emails as well mine covered in some cases different things but largely covered the same stuff just ordered a little

對照組，我想有八封電子郵件。我測試了一組新的，也是八封電子郵件。我的在某些情況下涵蓋了不同的東西，但大部分涵蓋了相同的內容，只是順序稍微不同

differently uh so we don't have to get into all the details but conversion copywriters follow this idea of stages of awareness a lot of marketers talk about something similar but for us we

所以我們不必討論所有細節，但轉化文案專家遵循這個意識階段的概念，很多營銷人員談論類似的東西，但對我們來說

talk in terms of stages of awareness and so I was reorganizing the emails to move people from low product awareness to high product awareness to most aware so they'd be decently product aware when

我們用意識階段來談論，所以我在重組電子郵件，讓人們從低產品意識到高產品意識再到最高意識，所以當他們

they started this blow they had to in order to become this level of lead or user so yeah so I reorganized things to make sure that we were moving them through

開始這個流程時，他們已經有相當的產品意識，他們必須這樣才能成為這個級別的潛在客戶或用戶。所以是的，我重組了東西，確保我們在推動他們通過

that process and really like when you're most aware that's when you're ready to be quote-unquote sold to right so that's where we were laying on sales emails a little thicker

這個過程，真的當你是最高意識的時候，那就是你準備好被所謂的「銷售」的時候。對的，所以那是我們加重銷售郵件的地方

um but uh yeah my emails were all longer and not and I'm not talking about long I'm talking like the original email was two sentences and mine was four so it

但是是的，我的電子郵件都比較長，而且我說的長不是真的長，我說的是原來的電子郵件是兩句話，我的是四句話，所以

wasn't like it was going on like crazy like stopped it was it was fine um but yeah it uh they beat the control by uh yeah 350 percent more paid

不是像瘋狂地長下去...停，這沒問題。但是是的，它比對照組好了350%的付費

conversions in the end and it was funny uh Chris Savage we were at an event at um I think it was business of software um that we were at a couple years later and

轉化。有趣的是，Chris Savage，我們在一個活動上，我想是Software的商業活動，幾年後我們在那裡，而且

we were talking about those emails at like this speaker's thing and he was like uh my team hates them we really want to get rid of them but um

我們在講者活動上談論那些電子郵件，他說我的團隊討厭它們，我們真的很想擺脫它們，但

we keep looking at results and we can't and so I I think by now I think they're gone um and have been replaced by something else sadly but that's the reality right

我們一直看結果，我們做不到。所以我想現在它們可能已經不在了，被別的東西取代了，可惜。但那就是現實

a lot of marketers it doesn't even matter if it works and if it sounds on brand like these didn't sound like you know row a tree or anything like that

很多營銷人員，就算它有效，就算它聽起來符合品牌形象...像這些並不像你知道的，bro a tree或什麼的

might feel a little off-brand um it they sounded like the wastia brand but even still if it feels like it's trying like it's it's it's working it's gonna convince me it's gonna make

可能感覺有點偏離品牌，它們聽起來像Wistia品牌，但即使如此，如果感覺它在努力...像它在起作用，它會說服我，它會讓

me do something a lot of marketers have you know a bit of an allergic reaction to that not not saying the wistia marketers absolutely dead but we do know

我做某事，很多營銷人員你知道對此有點過敏反應。不是說Wistia的營銷人員絕對是這樣，但我們確實知道

that there was like resistance to those emails yeah even though they worked like a charm that's amazing 350 um also did you just say bro a tree

有對那些電子郵件的抵制，即使它們效果驚人。那很驚人，350%。還有你剛才說的bro a tree嗎

because I I might I might start using that now I thought it was a term I think it's a term it is now it's awesome it's beautiful um

因為我可能要開始用了。我以為這是一個術語，我想這是一個術語。現在是了。這很棒，很美

yeah I mean I think that's a good segue to um you know if you're if you're a subscription business operator at B2B SAS operator and you are and you know so

是的，我覺得這是一個很好的過渡，你知道如果你是訂閱業務運營者，B2B SaaS運營者，而且你知道，所以

this is kind of a a fun question for you too and your operating experience but I mean where have you found the most abundance or or Roi when you're looking

這對你來說也是一個有趣的問題，在你的運營經驗中，但我的意思是當你想改善

to improve conversion rates with copy are there likes Journeys or functions or processes that you usually go to um yeah so there are two kind of foundational principles in copywriting

用文案提高轉化率時，你發現最豐富的機會或投資回報在哪裡？有沒有像是客戶旅程或功能或流程是你通常會去的？是的，所以有兩個基礎原則在文案寫作中

like old school copywriting which is what conversion copywriting is based on um and uh they're complementary they're basically the same thing just said differently uh one goes list offer copy

像是老派文案寫作，轉化文案就是基於此的，它們是互補的，基本上是同一件事，只是說法不同。一個是名單、提案、文案

and the other one is the rule of one which is one reader one offer one big idea and one promise you'd be like it's not the rule of four doesn't matter it's

另一個是一的規則，就是一個讀者、一個提案、一個大想法和一個承諾。你會說這不是四的規則，沒關係，它

like the rule of one is what we call it but list offer copy is saying the same thing list is your reader offer is your one offer and then copy is your big idea

叫做一的規則，但名單、提案、文案說的是同一件事。名單是你的讀者，提案是你的一個提案，然後文案是你的大想法

and your promise so how do you express your offer to your reader in a way that sounds that that makes them convert um and so what they're all leading with

和你的承諾。所以你如何以一種讓讀者轉化的方式向他們表達你的提案，所以他們都在引導的

is I mean copy is the third note in list offer copy like that's the order of operations um for good reason because copy can only

是，我的意思是，文案是名單、提案、文案中的第三個元素，這就是操作順序，有很好的理由，因為文案只能

do so much now it can do a lot when you get list and offer right but a lot of people don't work on list and offer um and that that's been happening not just

做這麼多。當你把名單和提案做對時，它可以做很多，但很多人沒有在名單和提案上下功夫，這不只是

recently it's not like oh I'm just burned out no people haven't been working on their list or their offer for like ever back like when you think about

最近的事，不是說哦我只是精疲力竭了，不是，人們一直沒有在他們的名單或提案上下功夫。當你想想

how many Google ads you've seen run that all drive to the exact same landing page which is the home page which is not a landing page um people are just like kind of hoping

你看過多少Google廣告都導向完全相同的登陸頁面，就是首頁，那不是登陸頁面。人們只是在期望

that it doesn't matter that you care about who your list or your visitor or your reader or your user is um let's just we'll just change the

不在乎你的名單或訪客或讀者或用戶是誰也沒關係，讓我們只是改變

words but the thing is that the best copywriting techniques to actually get more lift have very little to do with copy it is your list first it is who are

文字。但事實是，真正能獲得更多提升的最好的文案技巧與文案本身關係不大。首先是你的名單，是你在

you talking to like who are you actually talking to um and there's rules around like or guidance at least around that so some principles and things to keep in mind

跟誰說話，你實際上在跟誰說話，有一些規則或至少是指導方針，一些原則和要記住的事情

such as the person you're talking to to should be someone who's actually enthusiastic about your product so keep that in mind whenever like the naysayers slip into your head like oh but we heard

比如你要對話的人應該是真正對你的產品有熱情的人，所以記住這點，每當像反對者在你腦中出現，像是哦但我們從

from customer support that nobody likes X like don't just don't just don't put that person in your head but it comes down to that that's like the number one

客服那裡聽說沒有人喜歡X，就是不要把那個人放在你腦中。但這歸結於這一點，這是第一

way to make your copy perform better is to first start with a really good clear understanding of who your reader is and that means like strong empathy for them

讓你的文案表現更好的方法是首先從真正清楚地了解你的讀者是誰開始，這意味著對他們有強烈的同理心

where empathy doesn't have to mean oh I'm in a rush no empathy means I'm here to solve something can you help me please um having that in mind and then when

同理心不一定意味著哦我很趕時間，不是的，同理心意味著我來這裡是要解決某個問題，你能幫我嗎？把這個記在心裡，然後當

you're asking about like the real thing so list I think everybody knows and again by list I mean readers users whatever list is just the old direct response idea because of mailers where

你問到真正的事情，所以名單，我想每個人都知道，再說一次名單我的意思是讀者、用戶，名單只是老派直郵的概念，因為郵寄會有

you'd have a list um offer it's it's your offer it is your offer hands down and that offer doesn't mean sale people hear that often and think

一個名單。提案就是你的提案，就是你的提案，毫無疑問。那個提案不一定意味著促銷，人們聽到這個常常會想

like oh but there's no offer there's no promotion there's no discount I'm not I'm not even talking about that I'm talking about the parts that go into your offer the things that you think

像是哦但沒有提案，沒有促銷，沒有折扣，我不是在說那個，我說的是組成你提案的部分，你以為

people understand that they don't understand at all they don't know what's in your product so we want to help them and this is one of the wistia emails a

人們理解但他們根本不理解的東西。他們不知道你的產品裡有什麼，所以我們想幫助他們。這是Wistia電子郵件之一，

couple of the wisty emails but one of them had a mega list in it and I actually did bring that up uh one of the sales emails this is email number five

幾封Wistia電子郵件之一，但其中一封有一個超級列表。我確實提出了那個，其中一封銷售電子郵件是第五封

in this eight part sequence um had a list of the powerful features inside um wistia and I think there are 22 bullets in this list where the idea is

在這個八部分系列中，有一個Wistia內部強大功能的列表，我想有22個要點在這個列表中，想法是

to make people go holy crap there's a lot of stuff in here like this thing does a lot even if they don't read them all but some people will read them all

讓人們說天哪這裡有這麼多東西，這個東西做很多事情，即使他們不全部讀，但有些人會全部讀

and they will be like moved by how good uh this product is so product is a big part of offer do people really get your product not just the value

然後他們會被這個產品多麼好而感動。所以產品是提案的很大一部分，人們真的理解你的產品嗎？不只是價值

proposition that you spent 90 of your marketing time working on which could be okay if you ended up with a good one um but like the actual what's the

主張，你花了90%的營銷時間在上面，如果你最後得到一個好的可能還行，但像是實際的，什麼是

product and sure there's also price as part of that promotion as part of that too right not necessarily the four Ps but at least those three ones

產品？當然還有價格作為其中的一部分，促銷也是，對吧？不一定是4P但至少是那三個

um that's all part of the offer if you can sit down every time you write something and really just think about like what am I actually offering my Prospect here

那都是提案的一部分。如果你每次寫東西都能坐下來真正思考我實際上在向我的潛在客戶提供什麼

like what what's going on here that's like a webinar too it's any other thing an e-book that you write are you making that offer sound like and I feel like so

像是這裡發生了什麼？那也像是網絡研討會，是任何其他東西，你寫的電子書，你讓那個提案聽起來像是...我覺得這像是

old school direct response when I say it because it's like pounded into your head when you like learn the traditional ways of writing copy um but do you have an irresistible offer

老派直郵，當我說它的時候，因為它像是當你學習傳統的文案寫作方式時被灌輸到你腦中。但你有一個無法抗拒的提案嗎？

like is it irresistible and that doesn't have to mean you hear that and go like there's no way to make uh QuickBooks 14-day trial sound irresistible but

它是無法抗拒的嗎？那不一定意味著你聽到這個就想沒有辦法讓QuickBooks 14天試用聽起來無法抗拒，但

there is that's the job that's the job that we do that's the job that's hard to do that's the job that when someone in marketing says okay product you go do it

有的，那就是這份工作，那就是我們做的工作，那就是很難做的工作，那就是當營銷部門的人說好產品你去做的時候的工作

then they can't do it we can do it we can not the product can't but we're the ones who are supposed to focus on this stuff we're supposed to be good at this

然後他們做不到。我們能做到，我們能...不是產品做不到，但我們是應該專注於這些東西的人，我們應該擅長這個

stuff you have to do that work copywriting is not just I'm going to make my headlines sound awesome it's not just that it's so much more than that and the really hard stuff that

東西，你必須做那個工作。文案寫作不只是我要讓我的標題聽起來很棒，不只是那樣，它比那多得多，真正困難的東西

is like the small hinge that swings giant bank vault doors um it's list and it's offer and if you can't deal if you can't do anything about list you can't do anything but

就像是擺動巨大銀行金庫門的小鉸鏈，是名單和提案。如果你對名單無能為力，你無法控制

traffic you can always do something about offer so I'd say work on that I get passionate about it I get like mad about it I mean as one does right as one should

流量，你總是可以對提案做些什麼。所以我會說在那上面下功夫。我對此很有熱情，我對此很生氣。我的意思是當然會這樣。應該這樣

well that that is something I actually struggle with myself is remembering the offer is not just the product or the price or the proposition it's everything combined to make something just feel inevitable right

這是我自己實際上掙紮的事情，記住提案不只是產品或價格或主張，它是所有東西組合起來讓某事感覺不可避免的東西

it's the thing that I want right now just give it to me stop making it hard don't make me guess or connect the dots or figure it out myself don't assume

這就是我現在想要的東西，給我吧，別讓它變難，別讓我猜或連接點或自己弄清楚，別假設

that I know I don't know I don't know anything I'm busy I'm lazy I resist work uh so no tell me tell me what the offer is make it sound good

我知道，我不知道，我什麼都不知道，我很忙，我很懶，我抵制工作，所以不，告訴我，告訴我提案是什麼，讓它聽起來很好

um I'm wondering what the most ridiculous tactic or principle within conversion copywriting um you've seen that works but just doesn't seem like it should so the number one thing that always

我想知道在轉化文案中最荒謬的策略或原則是什麼，你見過的有效但看起來不應該有效的。所以第一個一直

shocks me and that I hate to promote with my clients but like you can't help it because it works isn't copy again I'll get into a couple copy ones though

讓我震驚的，我討厭向客戶推薦但你不得不這樣做因為它有效的，又不是文案，我會講幾個文案的

um it's images a photo of a woman will outperform a photo of a guy every single every single test I've ever done of it with like ever and we've done a lot

是圖片。女性的照片永遠比男性的照片表現好，每一次，每一次我做過的測試，永遠，而且我們做了很多

always always if you want people to pay attention in your hero section put an image of a woman in there that's that's it shouldn't work but it does it just does

永遠永遠。如果你想讓人們在你的英雄區域注意，放一張女性的圖片在那裡，就這樣。這不應該有效但它就是有效，就是這樣

um but that's that's design stuff right all part of creative which copy is part of so it works together but um the kind of interesting things that do work but

但那是設計的東西，對吧？都是創意的一部分，文案是其中一部分，所以它們一起工作。但有趣的事情確實有效但

shouldn't I guess I don't know if it shouldn't but it might be surprising to people is to put your headline in the first person and in quotation marks also

不應該的，我猜我不知道它不應該有效，但可能會讓人驚訝的是把你的標題用第一人稱寫並加上引號，也

put your button in the first person um a little bit a little bit surprising and it feels like weird when you first do it like is this actually allowed can

把你的按鈕用第一人稱寫，有點讓人驚訝，當你第一次做的時候感覺很奇怪，像是這真的允許嗎？

I actually you can it's allowed you should do this um so quotation marks and first person in headlines I think that has a lot to do with people being curious about other

我實際上可以，這是允許的，你應該這樣做。所以標題中的引號和第一人稱，我認為這與人們對其他

people the possible revelation of a secret or something I didn't know in dialogue um so that's something another one is um tapping into the idea of a secret

人好奇有關，可能揭示一個秘密或我在對話中不知道的東西。所以那是一個。另一個是利用秘密的概念

not a secret uh that shouldn't work it does if you can find a secret and bake you can yeah you're good if you have no idea what to do or if you have

不是真的秘密，那不應該有效，但它有效。如果你能找到一個秘密並烘焙進去你就可以，是的，你很好。如果你不知道該做什麼或如果你有

every idea what to do still try a secret um it and you don't even have to call it a secret but if you can suggest that there's something secret you're about to

每個想法該怎麼做，還是試試秘密，它...你甚至不必稱它為秘密，但如果你能暗示有一些秘密的東西你即將

get inside our access people lose their minds over it um and then one other thing is uh extremely short copy works if you're just trying to get a

在裡面獲得訪問，人們會為此瘋狂。然後另一件事是極短的文案如果你只是想獲得一次

click and I think this is part of the reason that there's like always going to be a lot of interest in short copy is so many marketers and now who are far along

點擊會有效。我認為這是為什麼對短文案總是會有很多興趣的部分原因，是很多現在事業有成的營銷人員

in their careers who kind of grew up with all this talk about uh Google's home page being like so protected uh they will never put a line of copy on it

他們那種成長起來伴隨著所有關於Google首頁被保護得如何的討論，他們永遠不會在上面放一行文案

um those is like great desire to get your page down to the shortest possible version um and the reality is that yeah if you put your logo and a button on your home

那些就像有很大的渴望把你的頁面縮減到最短的版本。而現實是如果你把你的標誌和一個按鈕放在你的首

page you're gonna get really high clicks like your clicks are going to go through yeah there's nothing else to do exactly right people love clicking things it's there there's nothing else to do

頁，你會得到很高的點擊率，你的點擊會飆升。是的，沒有別的事可做。完全對，人們喜歡點擊東西，它就在那裡，沒有別的事可做

um so that's like it shouldn't work but it does right you will get more clicks and possibly in the end more engagement too um if you just keep moving people

所以那就像不應該有效但它有效的，對吧，你會得到更多點擊，可能最後也會有更多參與，如果你只是不斷推動人們

through really short short short short copy but you'll need a lot of different pages to get them there so yeah those are those are the things that freak me out

通過真的短短短短的文案，但你會需要很多不同的頁面來讓他們到達那裡。所以是的，這些是讓我震驚的事情

that's wild I especially struggle with the um the first person one because I I read everything in third and I wanted to be consistent but maybe I should just

這太瘋狂了。我特別在第一人稱上掙紮，因為我讀所有東西都用第三人稱，我想要保持一致，但也許我應該

get over it yeah and switch quickly from once you're like done quotation marks then switch quickly into second person right because it should always be you

克服它。是的，一旦你完成引號就快速切換到第二人稱，因為它應該永遠是你

you you the rest of the way right yeah yeah unless you're talking about yourself for some reason no good tip um all right I gotta drop in the

你你，剩下的路都是你。是的是的，除非你出於某種原因在談論你自己。沒有好提示。好的，我必須提出

inevitable AI questions oh God here we go here we go you knew they were coming um so okay so AI um when copywriters are using it you know

不可避免的AI問題。天哪，來了，來了，你知道它們會來的。所以好的，AI，當文案撰寫者使用它的時候，你知道

there's that that line between you know the person and the Machine um and I'm just thinking though you know beyond the the copyright questions and and ethics of that I mean there is an

人和機器之間有那條線，我在想，你知道，超越版權問題和道德問題，我的意思是有一個

opportunity for copywriters to hand off all the stuff that is really annoying you know like idea generation or whatever um I mean what do you think becomes more

機會讓文案撰寫者把所有真正煩人的東西交出去，你知道像是想法生成或什麼的。我的意思是你認為什麼會變得更

essential for the copywriter and what do you think is just going to start being handed off and not even thought about anymore to AI yeah um so I love AI also

對文案撰寫者來說是必要的，而什麼只會被交給AI，甚至不再被考慮？是的，所以我喜歡AI，也

um for writing I gave chat gbt uh chat a chat uh chance uh uh a try back in um December I think it was and uh if I asked it to write

用於寫作。我在12月給ChatGPT一個機會，我想是那時候，如果我讓它寫

if I said to write the opening line this wasn't copy I have to write the opening line of a novel about two boys who wake up to find themselves on a deserted

如果我說寫一個小說的開場白，這不是文案，我必須寫關於兩個男孩醒來發現自己在一個荒島上的小說開場白

island just like dreamed it up um and it like took 12 seconds or whatever and then it produced this like awesome line and I was like I would read

就是憑空想出來的，它像是花了12秒什麼的，然後它產出了這個很棒的句子，我想說我會讀

this book like that's a really good line so I was like okay we can work together AI I think you're awesome um and so I'm now A Plus or Pro or

這本書，那是一個很好的句子。所以我想好吧我們可以一起工作，AI我覺得你很棒。所以我現在是Plus或Pro或

whatever they've released as their paid thing because I was struggling with getting constant access to it um I love it so I don't know where the

他們發布的付費版本，因為我很難持續訪問它。我喜歡它，所以我不知道

limits are I like kind of having it as my sidekick um you know I've there are a lot of Juniors out there who have a lot to learn and resist learning things and

極限在哪裡。我有點喜歡把它當作我的副手。你知道我見過很多需要學習很多東西的新手，他們抵制學習東西，而且

really keep coming to the table with I'm a great writer I'm a creator native writer this is how you're supposed to do it and AI doesn't like bring that in my

真的一直帶著我是個偉大的作家，我是本土作家，這就是你應該做的方式這種態度來，而AI在我目前的

experience so far with it so I mean as like a you know kind of jaded old copywriter I like that there's no ego I can just work with this tool I can give

經驗中沒有帶來那個。所以我的意思是作為一個你知道的有點厭倦的老文案撰寫者，我喜歡沒有自我，我可以和這個工具一起工作，我可以給

it a prompt and then it will learn and keep learning and keep going um I'm not I cannot say that I've got all the prompts sorted out

它一個提示，然後它會學習並繼續學習和繼續。我不能說我已經把所有提示都搞清楚了

at all but who does it's so new um but I think that we'll get there and so yeah so the way I'm seeing it uh what

完全沒有，但誰有呢？它這麼新。但我認為我們會到達那裡，所以是的，我看到的方式是

can be more essential for me I if you use it as a sidekick I think you're going to be really happy with it if you use it to replace

什麼對我來說可以更重要？如果你把它當作副手，我認為你會非常滿意，如果你用它來取代

your brain when it comes to writing if you're like I hate writing I'm going to Outsource it to chat gbt okay um you're gonna get what you put in

你的大腦在寫作方面，如果你像我討厭寫作，我要把它外包給ChatGPT，好吧，你會得到你投入的東西

right we all know that it's only as good as what you enter into it and the directions that you give it um so I would say you should probably

對吧，我們都知道它只和你輸入的東西和你給它的指示一樣好。所以我會說你可能

not write your own copy anyway if you're already thinking that like if you hate writing just step away from all the writing tools and hire someone else to do it

本來就不應該寫自己的文案，如果你已經這樣想的話，像是如果你討厭寫作就離開所有寫作工具，僱別人來做

um but if you hate kind of the tedious stuff so um things like a competitor uh messaging audit so I did this the other day I saw something on Twitter

但如果你討厭那種繁瑣的東西，像是競爭對手訊息審計，所以我前幾天做了這個，我在Twitter上看到一些東西

where some guy showed how he used chat gbt to put a table together um and so I was like oh have you seen this no oh it was cool

有個人展示他如何用ChatGPT製作一個表格，所以我想說哦你看到這個了嗎？沒有，哦這很酷

um Joel correctly I don't know if you follow him but he retweeted it and that's how I found it um but he put this table together and so I used it to do a

Joel Correctly我不知道你是否關注他，但他轉發了它，那就是我怎麼發現的。但他製作了這個表格，所以我用它來做一個

messaging audit for um three project Management Solutions and it was cool it made like this table of it just audited and was able to come up with the different features that different

三個項目管理解決方案的訊息審計，很酷，它製作了這個表格，就是審計了並能夠想出不同工具有的不同功能

um these different tools have what features Asana has that nobody else like and it did it in like four seconds and it had like produced this massive table

Asana有什麼別人沒有的，它在四秒內做完了，產出了這個龐大的表格

so there's all this research we do as we're like trying to get a sense for what our message should be where can we fit in the market how can we

所以有所有這些研究我們做的，當我們試圖弄清楚我們的訊息應該是什麼，我們可以怎麼在市場中定位，我們可以怎麼

differentiate what matters to people what's like the Baseline and sometimes you already have these going into it but this is like one example of the many different kinds of research that we have

差異化，什麼對人們重要，什麼是基準線，有時候你已經知道了，但這是我們必須做的許多不同類型研究中的一個例子

to do in order to get to a place where we're ready to write um and it just does it for you so that it produced this table that I could then

為了到達一個我們準備好寫的地方，它就為你做了。所以它產出了這個表格，然後我可以

you could like take it and paste it into a report for your client and it's done um I I feel like I get really excited about it I'm sure there are Parts where

你可以拿它貼到給客戶的報告中，完成了。我覺得我對此很興奮，我確信有些部分

it's like maybe a year from now copy hackers will be gone because AI is so good um that it just completely eliminated the need for me there's nothing I can do

可能一年後Copy Hackers會不在了，因為AI太好了，它完全消除了對我的需求，我無能為力

about that so okay um it's gonna get that good I mean okay I have that's fine um I have no choice but to deal with that but along the way and in the

關於那個，所以好吧，它會變得那麼好。我的意思是好吧我沒有選擇只能面對那個，但在這個過程中和

meantime and then even afterward I'd still I mean I think there's so many it you can tell it to write to come up with a list of 10 problems for

之後，我仍然...我的意思是我認為有這麼多...它，你可以告訴它寫出關於

hyperhidrosis when we think about like there's an example that I have on copy hackers of writing um rewriting the homepage for sweatblock.com and it got really great results Etc but I had to go

多汗症的10個問題的列表，當我們想想...在Copy Hackers上有一個例子是重寫sweatblock.com的首頁，它得到了很好的結果等等，但我必須去

manually review all sorts of product reviews to start coming up with like what the problems are that people have Etc you can ask it to to go do that and

手動審查各種產品評論來開始想出人們有什麼問題等等，你可以讓它去做那個然後

come up with the 10 key problems with hyperhidrosis and then dig into the seventh problem and give me X Y or Z out of that and just like that you've got

想出多汗症的10個關鍵問題，然後深入研究第七個問題，給我X Y或Z從那個，就這樣你有了

problem agitation and then solution you can also get it to work with you on but you have now written at least a really strong outline and you didn't do

問題、激化然後解決方案。你也可以讓它和你一起工作，但你現在已經寫了至少一個真正強大的大綱，你沒有做

anything you just told it to go do it so I don't know if that's answering your question but um I think it's there is a really strong sidekick and it's only going to get

任何事，你只是告訴它去做。所以我不知道這是否回答了你的問題，但我認為它是一個真正強大的副手，它只會變得

better as we all know um and currently I'm not scared but excited about that and I hope people are too yeah I mean to be able to do the the

更好，正如我們都知道的，而且目前我不害怕而是對此興奮，我希望人們也是。是的，我的意思是能夠做手動的

manual synthesis and you know Finding facts and and it when it gets to the point when I trust the citation that's that's just going to be epic I

綜合，你知道尋找事實，當它到達我信任引用的時候，那就會很史詩。我

mean I know Bing's doing some stuff there too but the synthesis too is but you still have to know the questions to ask you have to know the why behind it

意思是我知道Bing在那方面也在做一些事情，但綜合也是，但你仍然必須知道要問什麼問題，你必須知道背後的原因

you know exactly like yeah in some cases um I was I was listening to a show today where someone used the uh the comparison of like handing a toddler a chainsaw

你知道，是的，在某些情況下。我今天在聽一個節目，有人用了給幼兒一把電鋸的比喻

it's like oh and that is that could be dangerous but um very dangerous is that a good analogy though like probably not it Just this sounds bombastic you know yeah I was

那就像哦，那可能很危險，但非常危險。那是一個好的比喻嗎？可能不是，它只是聽起來很誇張，你知道。是的，我是

there to freak you out um right I'm I don't know I I know there's lots of things that could go wrong I'm not naive I don't think about it but I'm also

那裡是為了嚇你的。對的，我不知道，我知道有很多事情可能會出錯，我不天真，我不想那個，但我也

um I don't know we don't I don't think if I get mad here in British Columbia we're not allowed to have Uber because the taxi union says absolutely not so

不知道，我們...在卑詩省我們不允許有Uber因為計程車工會說絕對不行，所以

we're going through life without Uber it's Madness it's like ridiculous um and it's this fear of change right and I get it it's costly to the group

我們在沒有Uber的情況下生活，這是瘋狂的，這太荒謬了，這是對改變的恐懼，對吧，我理解，這對被取代的群體是有代價的

that's being replaced by it I get it I'm not minimizing it but the reality is that the change is happening so I don't know we can I should I think let's just

我理解，我不是在最小化它，但現實是改變正在發生，所以我不知道我們能不能...我認為讓我們只是

be excited about it I don't know that it's a child with a chainsaw um maybe maybe I'm naive and I don't have kids so maybe that's part of it I

對此感到興奮。我不知道它是不是小孩拿著電鋸，也許我很天真，而且我沒有孩子，所以也許那是部分原因，我

just it doesn't it doesn't clue in for me when there's that like danger signal yeah yeah I mean I just think it's it's important to um to educate people

只是當有危險信號的時候對我來說不會響起。是的是的，我只是認為教育人們很重要

how to use it and which I think has been lacking um on open AI side it's just like here go play with this you know we don't know

如何使用它，這我認為在OpenAI方面一直缺乏，就像這裡，去玩這個，你知道我們不知道

what's gonna happen yeah yeah but like we're I think everybody is right yeah right um I know we're close to time so I want to ask you real quick about about running

會發生什麼。是的是的，但像是我們...我認為每個人都是對的。是的對的。我知道我們快沒時間了，所以我想快速問你關於經營

copy hackers over the years and you know as building a subscription business of your own you know what's what's the most surprising thing about you've learned about growing that or from growing that yeah

這些年來的Copy Hackers，你知道作為建立你自己的訂閱業務，你知道關於發展它你學到的最令人驚訝的事情是什麼？是的

um I've learned you you don't need as many tactics as you think you do um this my friend Matt Lerner who runs startup course strengths he wrote um an article newsletter thing a couple

我學到你不需要你認為你需要的那麼多策略。這是我的朋友Matt Lerner，他經營Startup Course Strengths，他寫了一篇文章通訊什麼的幾

a year ago where he talked to he was quoting a podcast a person who was talking in a podcast about sevens and eights so um his his line is sevens kill businesses

一年前，他引用了一個播客，一個人在播客中談論7和8，所以他的說法是7會殺死企業

where anything that isn't going to perform seven if anything in your in your team in your business is a seven or less like in terms of performance of

任何在你的團隊、你的業務中的東西如果是7分或以下的，就表現而言

seven out of ten it's going to kill your business so anything that's a seven has to go um I think that there are loads of sevens that we've had over the years and

10分中的7分，它會殺死你的業務。所以任何是7分的都必須走。我認為我們這些年有很多7分的東西，然後

um the eights nines and tens are I think you know we fall into the same problem that we try to coach our clients out of like don't do the sexy

8、9和10分的，我認為你知道我們陷入了我們試圖指導客戶避免的同樣問題：不要做性感的

thing just do the work thing the thing that works is good you could have more vacations you can save more money you can pay your team your small small team better

東西，只是做有用的東西。有用的東西是好的，你可以有更多假期，你可以存更多錢，你可以更好地支付你的小團隊

um so uh I've learned not to worry about complicated funnels I'm learning that the hard way I've learned it I've learned that you don't I don't need this

所以我學到不要擔心複雜的漏鬥。我是艱難地學到這一點。我學到，我學到你不...我不需要這個

is a three million dollar a year business I don't need seven to ten team members I'm down to uh three full-time team members outside of myself and then contractors and Freelancers and

是一個一年300萬美元的業務，我不需要7到10個團隊成員。我現在減少到除了我自己之外的3個全職團隊成員，然後是承包商和自由職業者，而且

by the way they need the work too so like go support them um those Freelancers who will then turn that work into something else Etc I know employees also need jobs don't get me

順便說一句他們也需要工作，所以去支持他們，那些自由職業者會把那個工作變成別的東西等等。我知道員工也需要工作，別誤會我

wrong but um that's anyway where I'm prioritizing things right now so yeah it's stop working on things that someone told you might work I know what

錯了，但那是我現在優先考慮事情的地方。所以是的，停止做別人告訴你可能有效的事情。我知道什麼

things work in my business when I run a webinar it's a sales webinar it sells and we make a lot of money when I do a short-term promotion it sells and we

東西在我的業務中有效。當我舉辦網絡研討會，是銷售網絡研討會，它銷售，我們賺很多錢。當我做短期促銷，它銷售，我們

make a lot of money if I just do two of those a year you can just like rest in between like legit just rest but I think you've got

賺很多錢。如果我一年只做兩次這樣的事情，你可以在中間休息，像是真的只是休息。但我認為你有

like this productivity problem like I can't just rest I have to do something let's go build some software let's go throw a million dollars at building software like lunatics

像是這種生產力問題：我不能只是休息，我必須做某事。讓我們去建造一些軟體，讓我們像瘋子一樣花一百萬美元建造軟體

um so yeah that's it's the surprising thing that I've learned about growing copy hackers over the years is just to do the things that work and stop filling

所以是的，這就是我這些年來學到的關於發展Copy Hackers最令人驚訝的事情，就是做有效的事情，停止用

in all of your well-earned free time with make work projects that's such a good point no it's such a good point because you you do your own thing because you

你辛苦賺來的空閒時間做無意義的項目。這是個好觀點，不這是個很好的觀點，因為你做自己的事情是因為你

love doing it and also you want to do it on your own terms but then you end up making it look like everything else in some cases you know like it's the

喜歡做它，而且你想按自己的方式做，但然後在某些情況下你最終讓它看起來像其他所有東西，你知道像是

clarity to to stop and to breathe you know yeah and it's hard when you're like you can't help but be in competition with others you get excited when you

清晰地停下來和呼吸，你知道。是的，當你忍不住與他人競爭的時候很難，你會興奮當你

hear what others have done like whoa that person did a 20 million dollar course launch maybe one day I will and then you're like well hold on I don't

聽到別人做了什麼，像是哇那個人做了2000萬美元的課程發布，也許有一天我也會，然後你會想等等我不

even want 20 million dollars I'm not against it don't get me wrong but I don't want a bigger house I like I go on nice vacations already I want more time

甚至不想要2000萬美元，我不反對，別誤會我，但我不想要更大的房子，我已經去很好的假期了，我想要更多時間

that's what I want um so it's hard when you're like kind of out there competing or you see someone that you know really well have this great breakthrough and you think well I

這就是我想要的。所以當你在外面競爭或者你看到一個你很了解的人有了很大的突破，你會想好吧我

should you know try to get there too and now I think a lot of people are feeling this way though right now just like the total burnout on like just forget it

應該也試著達到那裡，我認為很多人現在正有這種感覺，就像是完全精疲力竭的：算了吧

just forget it just work on things that make you happy and stop like overthinking exactly like there's only so much so many inputs we can handle at this point yeah exactly

算了吧，就做讓你快樂的事情，停止過度思考。確實，我們在這個時候能處理的輸入只有這麼多。是的確實

well you're an abundance of knowledge I could talk to you for two hours about this stuff but uh I'll close with two questions I asked everyone and the first is uh

你是知識的寶庫，我可以和你談這些東西兩個小時，但我會用兩個問題結束，我問每個人的問題。第一個是

if you're reading a book right now or a long form article that had an effect on you uh what is it oh the long-form article that had an

如果你現在在讀一本書或一篇長文章對你有影響，是什麼？哦對我最近有影響的長文章

effect on me most recently is really speaking to what I just spoke to clickminded.com complicated like I know it well enough that I know the exact URL to just like go there

真的與我剛才說的相關，clickminded.com複雜...像是我對它熟悉到知道確切的URL可以直接去那裡

um it's it's about their like their sevens versus tens um they don't talk about it that way but that's what it's about and I am forwarded forwarded it to everybody I

它是關於他們的7對10，他們沒有那樣說，但那就是關於什麼的。我轉發給了我認識的每個人，我

know I'm in a group called shine crew uh Ford it's all of them like everybody I know is like got it Joe you like this article I think that's the first time anyone's

知道我在一個叫Shine Crew的群組裡，Ford，他們所有人，像是我認識的每個人都有了：Jo你喜歡這篇文章。我想這是第一次有人

given me a direct URL which is you're welcome thank you um yeah and then uh closing out if you have a high octane tip uh you would give

給我一個直接的URL，你不客氣。謝謝。是的，然後最後結束，如果你有一個高強度的建議你會給

other listeners uh it could be about anything design leadership reading running who knows yeah that's so it I hope it's high octane for me it's been the thing that I think has just kept

其他聽眾的，可以是關於任何事情，設計、領導力、閱讀、跑步，誰知道。是的，我希望它是高強度的，對我來說它是一直持續的東西

paying off um is uh it's so it's so dull and I apologize I wish I had a sexy way to say it um showing up I know it's not sexy but

回報。是出現。我知道這不性感，但

oh the people who keep showing up are still here 12 years later and are now like just born authorities on it like people just grow up with you I'm just

哦那些繼續出現的人12年後還在這裡，現在像是天生的權威，像是人們就是和你一起成長。我只是

I'm saying that because there have been times when I wanted to stop showing up copy hackers is 12 years old this year that's the longest I've spent doing like

說這個是因為有些時候我想停止出現。Copy Hackers今年12歲了，這是我花最長時間做的事情

anything other than like living like I don't have 12 years of doing anything in school I guess uh that's true that's exactly 12 years for um before University

除了活著之外的任何事情。像是我沒有任何在學校的12年...我猜有...那是真的，那正好是大學前12年

um but it is that and what I found what's really interesting is I wrote These ebooks copy hackers launched on Hacker News 12 years ago with this set

但就是那樣，我發現有趣的是我寫了這些電子書，Copy Hackers在12年前在Hacker News上發布了這套

of four ebooks and it changed everything for me but it could have stopped it could have just like been like cool I made some good cash but I will go get a job

四本電子書，它改變了我的一切。但它可能就停在那裡，就像是酷我賺了一些好錢，但我會去找一份工作

um but I didn't and now we have people coming to us now who were coordinators or who were just doing their first startup when they read those ebooks and

但我沒有，現在有人來找我們，他們當時是協調員或者他們剛開始他們第一個創業公司當他們讀那些電子書的時候，而且

now their VP of growth at some massive 10 000 person organization and they're like we have to work on our messaging can you come help us can you train my

現在他們是某個10000人組織的增長副總裁，他們說我們必須處理我們的訊息，你能來幫我們嗎？你能訓練我的

team because I was there 12 years ago and because I'm still here now so for me it's like it's the easiest thing to stop showing up it's the easiest thing to turn away

團隊嗎？因為我12年前在那裡，因為我現在還在這裡。所以對我來說，停止出現是最容易的事情，在你即將

just as you're about to have a breakthrough um and also that's it's high octane for me it just keeps showing up I actually I remember that launch and oh

有突破的時候轉身是最容易的事情。這對我來說是高強度的，就是繼續出現。我實際上記得那次發布，而且哦

yeah you know those were that was when ebooks were kind of you know this emerging new medium and oh charging for them and all these things

是的你知道那時候電子書是一種你知道的新興媒體，而且哦收費和所有這些事情

and boom you know it was it was massive uh Dharma Shaw was one of the first buyers of it and I was like there might be something here oh yeah that's pretty

然後轟，你知道它很大，Dharma Shaw是第一批買家之一，我想說這裡可能有些東西。哦是的那很

cool that's our mesh was yeah that's really cool awesome well appreciate your time Joanna thank you so much Scott that was fun don't miss out on future episodes get alerts for new drops at

酷。那是我們的Mesh，是的。那真的很酷。太好了，感謝你的時間Joanna。非常感謝Scott，那很有趣。不要錯過未來的節目，在

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你對這個節目的支持到目前為止令人難以置信，讓我們保持這個勢頭。我們都是算法的奴隸，評分和評論真的

help please rate US five stars on your platform of choice we'll be truly grateful that's all for now I'm Scott herf and this has been subscription Heroes

有幫助。請在你選擇的平臺上給我們五顆星，我們會真心感激。這就是現在的全部，我是Scott Herf，這是Subscription Heroes