If you ask high schoolers in the US whether they have felt sad or hopeless almost every day for 2 weeks or more in a row, 40% say yes, including 53% of the girls.

如果你問美國的高中生，他們是否連續兩週或更長時間幾乎每天都感到悲傷或絕望，40%的人說是，包括53%的女生。

And some people are ready to blame social media.

有些人準備把責任歸咎於社群媒體。

>> No social media until 16. Jonathan Height's book, The Anxious Generation, How the Great Rewiring of Childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness. I don't think anybody can dispute that.

>>16歲前不準用社群媒體。Jonathan Haidt的書《焦慮的一代》，童年的大規模重塑如何導致心理疾病的流行。我認為沒有人能夠質疑這點。

But plenty of experts actually do dispute that.

但實際上有很多專家確實質疑這點。

>> Why do you think the majority of social scientists actually working in this field disagree with you on this?

>>你認為為什麼大多數在這個領域實際工作的社會科學家在這個問題上不同意你的看法？

>> Well, first of all, >> to understand the controversy around this question, we decided to have our own debate. We flipped a coin to pick sides.

>>好吧，首先...>>為了理解圍繞這個問題的爭議，我們決定進行我們自己的辯論。我們拋硬幣來選邊站。

>> Oh, >> okay. >> There we go.

>>哦，>>好的。>>就這樣。

>> There you go. Okay. >> All right.

>>就這樣。好的。>>好的。

>> And armed with evidence to trade statistics, answer tough questions, and even concede a point. Today we switch from collaborators to adversaries.

>>裝備著證據來交換統計數據、回答棘手的問題，甚至承認一個觀點。今天我們從合作者轉變為對手。

>> One thing I'm noticing, you guys are sometimes nodding at each other's points because you're often quite collaborative. Be more combative.

>>我注意到一件事，你們有時候會對彼此的觀點點頭，因為你們通常很合作。要更有對抗性一點。

>> Stop doing that. >> In this new podcastlike format, we take on the fiercest debate in psychology.

>>停止那樣做。>>在這個新的播客式格式中，我們接受心理學中最激烈的辯論。

>> We partnered with Riverside to make this episode.

>>我們與Riverside合作製作這一集。

So, funny thing, I'm traveling and my internet just went out, but you at home have no idea that that happened because we're recording this with Riverside, which is an all-in-one online studio.

所以，有趣的是，我在旅行，我的網路剛斷了，但你在家的觀眾完全不知道這件事發生了，因為我們用Riverside錄製這個，它是一個一體化的線上工作室。

>> It's not just a tool for YouTubers. You probably noticed that all kinds of people across tech, design, business, are using video and audio to really promote their personal brands and reputations.

>>它不只是YouTuber的工具。你可能注意到各種科技、設計、商業領域的人都在使用視頻和音頻來真正推廣他們的個人品牌和聲譽。

>> Yeah. The problem is a lot of people just assume that they need all of this stuff to be able to make content. You know, you think you need gear or a

>>是的。問題是很多人只是假設他們需要所有這些東西才能製作內容。你知道，你以為你需要設備或

studio or you need all these editing skills. But these days, um, and this is pretty recent because of tools like Riverside, that's just not true anymore.

工作室，或者你需要所有這些剪輯技能。但這些天，嗯，這是相當近期的事，因為有像Riverside這樣的工具，那已經不是真的了。

So, with Riverside, you just you can record on your laptop or your phone, you hit record, and what it does that is super useful is that it records like

所以，用Riverside，你只需要在筆電或手機上錄製，你按下錄製，它做的超級有用的事情是它錄製像是

both of our sides of the conversation locally on our device. So, it's recording on Adam's computer. It's it's recording on my computer. And that means that if our Wi-Fi is spotty, the

我們對話雙方都在我們的設備上本地錄製。所以它在Adam的電腦上錄製，它在我的電腦上錄製。這意味著如果我們的Wi-Fi不穩定，

recording still comes out very clean and crispy.

錄製仍然出來非常乾淨清晰。

>> Then, with just a single click, Riverside automatically turns your recordings into short clips for LinkedIn, Tik Tok, Instagram. So, if you've ever thought about sharing your expertise, teaching what you know,

>>然後，只需一鍵點擊，Riverside會自動將你的錄製轉換成LinkedIn、TikTok、Instagram的短片。所以，如果你曾經想過分享你的專業知識，教你所知道的，

gaining influence in your industry, Riverside is a great way to make sure your voice is heard. And right now you can get 10% off a Riverside subscription

在你的行業中獲得影響力，Riverside是確保你的聲音被聽到的好方法。現在你可以用10%的折扣獲得Riverside訂閱

with access to all of their tools if you click the link in our description and you use the code howtown. If you think you might want to try this out and we

並獲得他們所有工具的訪問權限，如果你點擊我們描述中的鏈接並使用代碼howtown。如果你想試試這個，而且我們

genuinely recommend this tool, we use it a lot. Using our code can really help our channel.

真心推薦這個工具，我們經常使用它。使用我們的代碼可以真正幫助我們的頻道。

>> So Jos will be arguing for the proposition that social media is harming teens mental health and Adam will be arguing against. This sound is the timer

>>所以Joss會為社群媒體正在傷害青少年心理健康的命題辯論，Adam會反對這個觀點。這個聲音是計時器

and this sound is for when we have a visual on screen for you if you want to see it. There'll be seven rounds and at the end you can vote for which side won

這個聲音是當我們在螢幕上有視覺效果給你看的時候。會有七輪，最後你可以投票選出哪方獲勝

on Patreon. >> Show down first round. >> You'll have 2 minutes to present your opening arguments. Joss is up first.

在Patreon上。>>對決第一輪。>>你有2分鐘來陳述你的開場論點。Joss先開始。

>> Okay. So when we say that there is a mental health crisis among Gen Z, we are relying on multiple different lines of evidence. So these are robust sort of

>>好的。所以當我們說Z世代存在心理健康危機時，我們依賴的是多種不同的證據線。所以這些是穩健的

long-term data sources that show steep changes starting in the mid2010s which is when a very small number of American tech companies started experimenting with all of our minds. So these are

長期數據來源，顯示從2010年代中期開始的急劇變化，那時候非常少數的美國科技公司開始用我們所有人的心智做實驗。所以這些是

surveys that are conducted inside schools or by interviewers that actually visit houses and they are showing increases in the percentage of teenagers who have had a major depressive episode

在學校內部進行的調查，或由實際上訪問家庭的訪問員進行的調查，它們顯示在過去一年中經歷過重度抑鬱發作的青少年百分比增加

in the past year. the percentage who say they often feel lonely, who say they do not enjoy life, that they experience persistent sadness and hopelessness, and the increases are especially sharp for

說他們經常感到孤獨的百分比，說他們不享受生活的，說他們經歷持續的悲傷和絕望的，而且增加幅度對

girls. Uh it's not just the survey data either. The rates of teen girls visiting ERS for self harm have risen.

女孩特別明顯。呃，這不只是調查數據。因自我傷害而去急診室的青少年女孩的比率已經上升了。

Hospitalizations for self harm have risen. And most tragically, suicides are up for teens, for both boys and girls.

因自我傷害而住院的人數上升了。最悲劇的是，青少年的自殺率上升了，無論是男孩還是女孩。

And in the age range of 10 to 14, where suicide is thankfully quite rare, we're seeing rates that the US has never recorded before. Now, you look at other

在10到14歲的年齡段，自殺幸運地相當罕見的地方，我們看到的比率是美國以前從未記錄過的。現在，你看其他

parts of the world and you see similar trends to different degrees in Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and some parts of Europe as well. And in all of

世界各地的地方，你會看到在加拿大、英國、澳大利亞、紐西蘭和歐洲部分地區有不同程度的類似趨勢。而且在所有

those places, the trends are worse for girls than boys. Now, I'm not saying that all of Gen Z is depressed or anxious, but we're talking about a growing number of kids who are falling

這些地方，這些趨勢對女孩來說比男孩更糟。現在，我不是說所有Z世代都抑鬱或焦慮，但我們在談論越來越多的孩子正在陷入

into despair at the same time that Silicon Valley has completely remade the experience, the daily experience of being a teenager.

絕望，與此同時矽穀已經完全重塑了青少年的日常體驗。

>> Okay, Adam, you now have 90 seconds to respond.

>>好的，Adam，你現在有90秒回應。

>> I don't think anyone would argue that we have seen some mental health changes in teens, especially in the United States.

>>我不認為有人會爭辯說我們沒有看到青少年的一些心理健康變化，尤其是在美國。

But if you want to tie that to social media, you've got to prove that it's as big and ubiquitous and global as social media is. So, first off, is it as big as

但如果你想把這與社群媒體聯繫起來，你必須證明它像社群媒體一樣大、普遍和全球化。所以，首先，它有那麼大嗎，像

it seems? I think that there's been some changes in the last 10 years that may have inflated those numbers. You've got, first and foremost, a decrease in the stigma around mental health. People are

它看起來的那樣？我認為過去10年有一些變化可能誇大了那些數字。你首先有的是圍繞心理健康的污名化減少。人們正在

talking about it more. There's been changes in the way we diagnose these conditions, and there's more mental healthare. All those things are really good, but it just means that we're

更多地談論它。我們診斷這些狀況的方式有變化，而且有更多的心理健康護理。所有這些都是非常好的事情，但這只是意味著我們

probably catching more people that have these issues. Second, is it new? We've had spikes in suicides before. In the '90s, the suicide rate for girls was actually just slightly lower than it is

可能在發現更多有這些問題的人。第二，這是新的嗎？我們以前有過自殺率的高峰。在90年代，女孩的自殺率實際上只是略低於現在

now. And for boys, it was actually higher back in the '90s. And is it global? We can look and see. There's not great data from around the world, but

而對於男孩，在90年代實際上更高。它是全球性的嗎？我們可以看看。世界各地的數據不是很好，但是

there are places like the Netherlands where you do see huge uptake of social media. They were early adopters. We have great data there. And we don't see this

有像荷蘭這樣的地方，你確實看到社群媒體的大量採用。他們是早期採用者。我們那裡有很好的數據。而且我們沒有看到這

pattern at all. And so, if you want to link the mental health challenges we see here to social media, you've got to explain why we don't see that everywhere.

青少年心理健康的下降。

But the most important thing is that even if these lines line up, correlation is not causation. And we need to prove that causation.

>>對決第二輪。>>你們現在有90秒可以互相提問和回答。Adam，你先開始。

>> Wow, look at you hitting that timer.

>>好的。Joss，你提到的一件事是心理健康危機在美國、英國、加拿大、澳大利亞、紐西蘭特別嚴重。這些地方有什麼共同點？

Like nobody is saying that this is the only factor that would explain mental health outcomes or that would explain suicide, which is a a complicated um and really tragic outcome. But when you look

>>嗯，讓我想想。英語？

at all these indicators together, you're seeing trends that are hard to deny. You know, there's one thing about doctors being more likely to uh diagnose anxiety and depression, but when a kid is

>>是的。所以，如果我們想問是什麼造成了這個問題，我們應該尋找使這些地方獨特的東西，而不是它們與其他地方共享的東西，因為其他

answering a survey question of like, do you often feel lonely? Um, I don't think that it's it's there's very strong evidence that the decline in stigma would increase those numbers. The fact

地方有社群媒體，但沒有這個問題。所以我們需要尋找另一個變量。

that you're seeing this in many countries, I think at least says that this is not something unique to the United States and it it something about maybe the the English-speaking countries, the more individualistic

>>好的，好的。首先，我並不是說世界其他地方沒有任何問題。我們對很多地方沒有同等級的數據。

countries are interacting with social media in this way that's harmful. I think even if we can agree that there is an increase in mental health issues, I

>>是的。

don't think that you're going to be able to show that there's strong consistent robust evidence linking social media.

>>我們確實有來自韓國的數據。韓國的心理健康問題急劇增加。我們確實有來自中國的一些數據，那裡有類似的趨勢正在發生。

Not just as, you know, I think maybe it could be a factor, but I don't think it's even in the top five factors at play. Um, and I'm going to try and and

第二，我要說的是，你提出了一個有趣的問題：這些國家有什麼共同點？其中一個答案可能是英語...或者只是更大程度地使用手機。

show that for the rest of this debate.

>>是的。

>> And before you start, I would just say that everyone should keep in mind that this is a very difficult thing to study.

>>嗯，這種以手機為基礎的童年的興起在這些地方發生得比世界其他地方更早。

Okay, let's move on to Adam's opening arguments. Adam, you have two minutes on the clock starting now.

>>手機無處不在。手機現在在非洲各地。

>> Great. Um, I want to just give a little bit of my time to sort of set up the scenario. So, people saw this rise in mental health issues in the United

>>那是真的。讓我問你一個問題。你說沒有足夠的證據來說社群媒體是造成這種損害的原因。那麼你認為什麼導致了它？

States. They went looking for what could have caused it. They see, you know, what are what's the youth doing these days?

>>所以這是一個很難回答的問題，因為可能有很多不同的因素在起作用。我認為有一些我們可以...

Oh, they're always on their phone. So, they went looking for evidence that that linked these two phenomena. And they produced hundreds and hundreds of studies. Right, Josh? We like kind of an

>>但讓我們試試。你會指向什麼？你會說那是什麼？

overwhelming amount of studies, more than we were able to read. Um, and they sort of fell into different categories.

>>我不知道。我的意思是，我認為我們需要尋找更具體的東西來解釋為什麼這在某些地方發生得更嚴重。

You could take a snapshot of a population with a survey. You can follow a cohort over time. You can set up an experiment where you randomly assign

>>好的。

half the group to give up social media.

>>但我不知道那會是什麼。我的意思是，這可能是經濟狀況。這可能是媒體環境。這可能是政治兩極化。

And hundreds of these studies have been done. So, what do they say? There's been dozens of reviews and metaanalyses that try to find the most robust studies and synthesize their results and generally

>>好的。好的。

they point out that the results are mixed. Sometimes they find a negative association, sometimes they find a positive one, a lot of times they find a neutral association. But what most of

>>這可能是很多不同的事情。

these peer-reviewed reviews say is that there just isn't that the the connection between social media and this mental health crisis is weak and inconsistent.

>>是的。如果我是一位法官，聽到你們雙方的陳述。

I'll quote from a National Academy of Sciences review that came out just last year. It was kind of a mega review of all the reviews that says the committee's review of the literature did

>>是的。

not support the conclusion that social media causes changes in adolescent health at the population level. You know, some people have sold a lot of books arguing the opposite. But a lot of

>>我會說你，Joss，有一些很好的證據支持你的論點。

people who work in this field are upset about that. They've said that Jonathan hate for example is telling stories that are unsupported by research. Um, and the

>>是的。

last thing I'd point out is that a lot of these reviews do point to other factors that could be influencing the mental health crisis.

>>而Adam只是有點說沒有足夠的證據。讓我們尋找替代解釋，但他還沒有提出替代解釋。

>> Okay. And Jos 90 seconds to respond.

>>對。我完全同意。我認為這是對我論點的公平批評。

>> Okay. It is it's really important to understand what this evidence base is doing, what the vast majority of these studies are doing, which is that they

>>對決第三輪。>>你們現在有90秒可以出示證據。Joss，你先開始。

ask teens on surveys, how many hours do you spend on social media? As if we are good estimators of that. And then they look for correlations with mental health

>>好的。讓我們談談相關性研究。所以，很多圍繞社群媒體對心理健康影響的研究著眼於使用社群媒體與心理健康結果之間的相關性。

issues. Um there is no control group of kids that never got on social media.

這些研究一次又一次地發現社群媒體使用與較差的心理健康之間存在相關性。

They all did. So we're looking for differences between kids who spent 2 hours a day and kids who said they spent four hours a day. Uh and then they lump

這種相關性對於女孩來說比男孩更強，這與我們在人口水平數據中看到的一致。

all of these apps together. Um so if you ask kids, the big time sucks, you know, that would really show up when they report their time on their phones are

現在，批評者正確地指出，這些相關性的效果量往往相當小。

watching YouTube and Tik Tok videos that are mostly made by strangers. Now, I wouldn't necessarily call that social media. That's kind of just media today.

但這裡有一些重要的背景。首先，很多對我們健康有公認影響的東西效果量也很小。

Uh, and then they spend less time on apps like Snapchat and Instagram, but most kids are checking those every day.

我們談論的效果量與鉛暴露、早餐不吃、二手菸、大麻使用的效果量處於相同的範圍內。

And I want to tell you 10 things that can happen within 15 minutes of check checking Snapchat or Instagram. Okay.

>>好的。>>你有30秒回應。

They didn't follow me back. They left me on red. The person I messaged the most isn't messaging me the most anymore.

>>好的。所以，是的，相關性確實很小。我實際上認為那是一個相當強的反對論點。

Yes, Snapchat has indicators for that. They didn't watch my story. I didn't get many likes on my post. I got a rude comment on my post. That other person

如果我們看元分析，社群媒體使用和心理健康之間的相關性，r大約是0.1。

got a like a lot of likes on their post.

這意味著社群媒體使用解釋了心理健康差異的大約1%。

Someone I care about liked their post but not mine. Look at the comments she got on her body, face, and clothes. My crushes in someone else's story and my

所以，是的，它可能有影響，但它很小。它不是驅動我們在人口水平看到的趨勢的東西。

friends are hanging out without me. So whether you spend four hours online or one, you're getting this relentless feedback. And the studies that you're citing are probably not set up to measure that.

>>對決第四輪。>>你們各有60秒來出示更多證據。Adam先開始。

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that it's it's true that a lot of the the the studies that are out there aren't that good quality. I I totally agree with

>>好的。讓我談談我認為更有說服力的一種研究類型，就是縱向研究。

that and and some of it is that this is really hard to study like you said and and there's it's hard to design an experiment that really gets at the

在縱向研究中，你隨著時間追蹤同一批人。所以你可以看到他們的社群媒體使用是否預測後來的心理健康問題。

question but the lack of a good study doesn't magically provide evidence to the contrary that is linking these these two things and the sort of overwhelming nature of social media which may be amplifying

這些研究得出的結果更加混雜。有些發現了效果，有些沒有。

sort of sort of that those kind of stressors. It sort of looks a lot like what being a teenager was like before uh before social media. Oh, come on.

事實上，有些研究發現了相反的效果，即使用更多社群媒體的人後來心理健康更好。

>> It's just to it's just to a greater it's just to a a more you know it's louder and it's faster. Um but I'd also say that that you mentioned, you know, some

所以，這些證據真的不是那麼清楚。

of these things are are comparing two and 4 hours. Some of them are comparing less than an hour and more than 6 hours.

>>好的，Joss。你有30秒回應。

I mean that there there are some pretty big extremes. Well, and when you see those extremes, most of them certainly show that kids that are spending four,

>>好的。所以，縱向研究確實很重要，但我認為它們有一些限制。

five, six hours a day do have worse mental outcomes.

首先，它們通常只追蹤一兩年的人，這對於檢測長期影響來說可能不夠。

>> They have worse mental health health outcomes, but just a little bit worse.

第二，它們通常依賴自我報告的社群媒體使用，這是眾所週知不準確的。

Uh I want to talk more about that that later, but uh I really think that it's you know if if it was causing a mental

第三，它們往往著眼於一般性的社群媒體使用，而不是特定類型的使用，這可能更有問題。

health crisis, if it was if it was a big enough of a problem that it's driving these terrible outcomes that we see, wouldn't we be able to measure a bigger

>>對決第五輪。>>你們各有60秒出示更多證據。Joss先開始。

effect in some of these experiments, however flawed they are?

>>好的。讓我談談實驗研究。所以，這些是隨機讓人們減少或退出社群媒體的研究。

>> Well, you do have to narrow in on exactly that what experiences are doing the damage and you have to narrow in on which groups of these kids are most

2018年有一項研究讓人們放棄Facebook一週。發現他們感覺不那麼抑鬱了。

vulnerable. And so when you do slice this data and you look at girls, you're going to see bigger effects. And there are no studies that show that spending

2022年的另一項研究讓人們放棄TikTok一週。發現那些原本使用大量TikTok的人焦慮減少了。

hours and hours on social media are is good for mental health.

這些是因果證據，不只是相關性。

>> Okay. Why why don't we move on?

>>Adam，你有30秒回應。

>> Okay. >> You each have one minute to present a stat that supports your case. And Adam, you're up first. So my stat is 0.041 standard deviations.

>>好的。所以，這些研究確實存在，但它們有一些問題。

This kind of weird sounding number comes from a very recent paper that was I think very well designed. They asked thousands of people to quit Instagram

首先，效果往往很小，而且並不總是具有統計顯著性。

for 6 weeks and then they saw how it affected their emotional state and they found that this you know period of social media abstinence shifted the emotional state in the right direction

第二，這些研究通常只持續一兩週，所以我們不知道效果是否會持續。

but only a tiny little bit 0.041 041 standard deviations. For reference in psychology, you typically want to have standard deviation shift of more than 0.2 to call it, you know, something

第三，那些參加這些研究的人可能不具代表性。如果你願意放棄Facebook一週，你可能本來就不太喜歡它。

that's emerging from the statistical noise. And then you really want it to be over 0.4, so 10 times the effect that they saw if you want to say this is

>>對決第六輪。>>你們各有60秒來回應對方最強的論點。Adam先開始。

clinically significant. This is going to affect people's lives in a way that they're going to need help.

>>好的。所以Joss提出的最有說服力的論點是時間上的一致性。

>> Okay, Joss, your response. Okay, a couple things about that study. Um, it was on adults, so there's no teens in this sample. And if you look at the

青少年心理健康在2010年代中期開始惡化，正是社群媒體變得無處不在的時候。

effect on young women, and they do this in the paper, they they look at the slices of of the groups and and the effect for young women on Instagram, and

我認為這確實是一個引人注目的巧合，但這只是相關性。

this is like 18 to 34 or something, was more than twice as large as the effect that you're saying, even though, and this is also important, the study said

同時發生的還有很多其他事情。智慧手機的普及、2008年金融危機的餘波、政治兩極化的加劇。

that their participants didn't take that time that they had been spending on Instagram and go outside and play soccer with their friends. They're saying that they just substituted time on other apps

所以，僅僅因為兩件事同時發生並不意味著其中一件導致了另一件。

of their phone, right? They closed Instagram, opened Tik Tok, and still they found an effect.

>>好的。Joss，你有30秒回應Adam最強的論點。

>> Wait, I want to use my tag team here.

>>好的。所以Adam最強的論點是效果量很小。

>> Tag team. >> I interviewed the lead author of that study, the Stanford economist Hunt Alcott, and this is what he had to say.

我承認這一點。在個人層面上，社群媒體使用和心理健康之間的相關性確實很小。

>> One decision that we all make as individuals is, should I personally stop using social media? And I think the the individual level randomized experiments that people have done speak to that question.

但我認為這低估了人口層面的影響。

But then you might want to stay on social media if all your friends are on social media. And then so another question is what happens if everybody

當數十億人都在使用某樣東西時，即使是很小的效果也可能意味著數百萬受影響的人。

uses less at the same time? And school level policies to ban smartphones at least during the school day speak to that. And so that's the next frontier of

>>對決第七輪最終回合。>>你們各有60秒做結案陳詞。Joss先開始。

research. Boom. Well, this doesn't I I I don't quite see how this addresses what I said. I mean, he's talking about we need to have better studies in schools

>>好的。讓我總結一下。我們有多條證據線指向同一個方向。

that um you know, this study addresses like would you choose whether or not to quit social media. um it doesn't really address the fact that in his own paper

人口水平的數據顯示心理健康在2010年代中期開始惡化，正是以手機為基礎的童年開始的時候。

he says that the effects that they measured were not statistically significant and they didn't rise to the level of significance that they set before they started the paper >> except for in young women.

相關性研究一致顯示社群媒體使用與較差的心理健康相關，對女孩來說更甚。

>> Well, even in young women, the size of the effect didn't hit that 0.2 threshold that's commonly used in this in this field. And even if it hit that number,

實驗研究顯示減少社群媒體使用可以改善心理健康。

it still wouldn't be at the level that we see with something like trauma or abuse where we know for sure that it's causing harms that we need to step in and do something about,

而且，這種趨勢在女孩中比男孩更明顯，這與我們知道的女孩如何使用社群媒體一致。

>> right? We're talking about 6 weeks off of Instagram while everybody around you is still on and you're just using different apps. And they found an effect

所以，雖然我們不能百分之百確定地說社群媒體是原因，但證據的權重強烈指向這個方向。

and and yes, it was small, but I think his point here is that it's a collective action problem. All the kids have shifted into this parallel universe and

>>Adam，你有60秒做結案陳詞。

now if any one of them abstains they are isolated. So what you really need to do in order to study what this has done to childhood at large is sort of randomize

>>好的。所以，我同意有一些證據表明社群媒體可能在青少年心理健康中扮演某種角色。

communities to spend less time and then see if you can find differences. And what he told me is that the research is going in that direction and hopefully

但我認為證據不夠強到支持我們現在看到的一些政策提議，比如禁止青少年使用社群媒體。

we'll start to see some of those results.

效果量很小。證據並不一致。而且我們真的不知道禁止社群媒體是否會有所幫助，還是可能會有意想不到的後果。

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I hesitate to bring up the the school studies because there haven't been that many of them, but you know, because he brought it up, there

我認為我們需要更多、更好的研究才能做出這些重大的政策決定。

have been a couple that have looked at this and they also found, you know, minuscule to zero effects. Um, I think, you know, I wouldn't hang my hat on that

>>好的。這就是辯論的結束。你們兩位都提出了很好的論點。

because I think there needs to be more studies and I think it's good that those are being done, but still so far the evidence we have isn't pointing in the

>>是的，我認為這很有趣，因為實際上，我們可能大部分都同意。

direction of massive effects. Even when an entire school says no social media all day every day or while you're at school.

>>是的，我認為差異可能更多在於程度而不是方向。

>> Well, while you're at school, right? If they go home and they spend six hours, >> right? Which we can't control. Yeah.

>>對。我想我們都同意社群媒體可能對青少年心理健康有一些影響。

With an experiment like that. >> Norms around parenting could change that, >> right? But it would be hard to uh make an experiment that that successfully policed that. I think

>>是的。

>> it would be hard. >> We might move on.

>>問題只是那個影響有多大，以及我們應該對此做些什麼。

>> Okay. Yeah. Let's do >> uh Jos, you get one minute to present your stat.

>>確實如此。好的，所以在Patreon上你可以投票選出你認為誰贏了這場辯論。

>> Okay. So 64% is the share of 11 and 12 year olds in the US who reported having social media accounts. Um 64% and we're talking about sixth graders here. Now

>>是的，如果你想加入我們的Patreon並獲得投票權和其他福利，鏈接在下方說明中。

this is notable for a couple of reasons.

>>好的。這就是這一集的內容。我希望你學到了一些東西。

One being that the minimum age requirement for these apps just to sign up for an account is 13. So the kids are just lying to set up their account. The

>>是的，這是一個有趣的實驗。我們以前從來沒有這樣做過。

the age gate is ineffective. Um secondly, we have research showing that the negative effects of social media on mental health are worse for those younger adolescents. So this comes from

>>對，這是一種新格式。如果你喜歡，請在評論中告訴我們，我們可能會再做一次。

a British sample is a really impressive study and it showed that for 11, 12, 13year-old girls, an increase in their social media use in one year predicted a

>>好的。感謝收看，我們下次再見。

a decrease in their life satisfaction a year later. That was also true of boys, but like later in life around ages 14 and 15. And the authors thought maybe

>>再見。

that had to do with the differences in the timing of puberty. And according to a Gallup survey, by the time kids are in the US are 13, they're spending an

好的，所以我們剛剛結束了辯論。你感覺如何？

average of 4 hours every day on social media.

>>我感覺很好。我認為那是一個有趣的練習。

>> Okay, Adam, your response. >> Well, I I don't think you can immediately jump from something is ubiquitous to something is bad. Uh, you know, I I found a stat that said 41% of

>>是的。我認為最有趣的部分是我們實際上必須為我們可能沒有完全認同的立場辯護。

uh 13-year-olds on their 13th birthday had already seen a PG-13 movie. Uh, so, you know, these kind of rules that are in place to protect children are broken

>>確實如此。這真的迫使你從不同角度思考問題。

by children all the time. It's another step to prove that that is is causing harm in some way. And as I said, I think that the bulk of the evidence just isn't

>>對。我認為這是一個有用的練習，對任何試圖理解複雜問題的人來說都是如此。

there to to prove that. >> Round three, we'll start with Adam. You have two minutes to make your point.

>>同意。好的，讓我們繼續討論一些我們認為很重要但沒有時間在辯論中涵蓋的要點。

>> Um, I think one of the things that makes this so hard to study is that a lot of these studies are are correlational.

>>好的。我想談的一件事是不同類型的社群媒體使用。

They're looking at, you know, a snapshot in time or they're trying to relate different trends. Um, and that means that the results can be confounded. And there's there's good research to suggest

>>是的，這很重要。不是所有的社群媒體使用都是一樣的。

that it's not just that teens um that are using social media might see some slight increase in depression or anxiety, but it's that depressed and anxious teens seek out social media. And

>>對。例如，被動消費內容，比如只是滾動瀏覽feed，似乎比主動參與，比如發佈或評論，更有問題。

so those two results are are linked in a reverse causation way. So basically, we're seeing that association because teens are are are seeking it out. Um, so for example, there's been lots of

>>是的。而且，使用社群媒體與朋友交流可能實際上對心理健康有好處。

studies that show this, but I found one that uh looked at at depression over time. They followed a cohort of girls.

>>對。所以，這不是一個簡單的好或壞的問題。這關乎你如何使用它。

Um, and they found results indicate that social media use did not predict depressive symptoms over time. However, greater depressive symptoms predicted more frequent social media use among

>>確實如此。我想談的另一件事是青少年大腦的發育。

adolescent girls. So even if there is a push and pull and and maybe social media is nudging people towards anxiety and depression in some specific cases then it results in this tiny little little

>>是的，這是一個重要的考慮因素。青少年的大腦仍在發育，特別是負責決策和衝動控制的前額葉皮層。

effect. It's hard to disentangle that from the pressure that's going the other way that that depressed teens are seeking out social media. They're looking for validation or maybe for mental health support and they're

>>對。這意味著他們可能更容易受到社群媒體潛在負面影響的傷害。

turning to social media. And so we're seeing these numbers where um those line up. Um it just makes it all a lot harder to find good evidence of the effects of social media.

>>是的，但這也意味著他們的大腦更具可塑性，可能更能適應新技術。

>> Jos, your response? >> I mean, if the longitudinal studies were showing that it just went one way, then yeah, I would concede this point. But I think what they were pretty clearly

>>這是真的。這是一把雙刃劍。

showing is that this relationship is going both ways. So what we're talking about is basically a feedback loop, which I think should make us more concerned rather than less. Um, so you

>>好的。另一個我們沒有深入討論的話題是社群媒體公司的作用。

have kids who may have a predisposition toward depression and anxiety. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe they have stressors that are going on in their lives. Um, we know what kinds of things help those

>>是的，這是一個重要的問題。這些公司設計了他們的產品來最大化參與度，這不一定是為了用戶的最佳利益。

kids, right? Good sleep, being part of a club, being with close friends. Um, but those are also arguably things that are under threat by this shift to spending

>>對。算法被設計成讓你盡可能長時間地留在平臺上。

more time on phones and apps. When we were in high school, 15year-olds spent an average of three and a half hours with friends every day. that was me.

>>這可能意味著向你展示更具爭議性或情緒化的內容，因為那更能吸引注意力。

That has fallen to less than an hour.

>>是的。我認為這是一個值得更多關注的領域。

They're spending a lot more time alone. They're less likely to get eight hours of sleep. And actually, 45% of teenagers specifically said that social media has harmed their sleep in a pupole last

>>同意。好的，我們快結束了，但我想總結幾個關鍵要點。

year. And when they don't get that support, I think they're more likely to find themselves going down dark algorithmically driven rabbit holes. you know, maybe they attach themselves to a

>>好的，開始吧。

a sort of shameless media figure that they find online or or they're more likely to engage in sort of antisocial behaviors in these online spaces. So, I think that the fact that uh depressed

>>首先，青少年心理健康確實在過去十年左右惡化了，至少在一些國家是這樣。

kids spend more time on social media brings me no comfort at all.

>>同意。

>> Mhm. Yeah. I mean, I just zero in on the one point you made about sleep, I think that there can be reverse causation there as well. There's there's a study

>>第二，社群媒體可能在其中扮演某種角色，但它不是唯一的因素。

that found that basically kids who are genetically predisposed to be night owls, they end up using more social media because that's when they're at home alone in bed, you know, they're not

>>對。還有很多其他因素，包括經濟、政治和文化因素。

out with their friends. And so again, you see this correlation between, oh, these people who are sleeping less, they're staying up later, they're getting less sleep because they had got

>>第三，社群媒體的影響可能因人、因使用方式、因平臺而異。

to wake up for for high school in the morning, those people are having uh, you know, more social media use. But it's because they are predisposed to this that that that correlation is happening.

>>是的，這不是一刀切的問題。

I'm not saying it's 100% but I'm just saying that the fact that it goes both ways makes it very hard to say with any confidence what portion of this

>>最後，我們需要更多、更好的研究來真正理解正在發生什麼以及我們應該如何應對。

correlation uh is due to reverse causation and which portion is is due to causation. And that just means that these tiny effects that we're seeing would be even lower if we were able to

>>同意。好的，這就是這次的內容。

weed out that reverse causation. >> Well, we have time series. They're sleeping less. The kids are sleeping less over time. So, it's not like the number of night owls have changed.

>>感謝收看。如果你喜歡這個視頻，請訂閱並點擊小鈴鐺，這樣你就不會錯過我們的下一個視頻。

they're actually less likely to get 8 hours of sleep a night than they used to be.

>>對。我們會在下次見到你。再見！

>> And if you look at the the data for when that degradation of sleep started, it was way back in the 70s that we've had this slow progression downward. And so

>>再見！

if you're saying that the mechanism by which social media is causing a mental health crisis is lack of sleep, then why didn't we see these mental health issues

讓我們談談這場辯論中沒有涵蓋但我認為很重要的一些事情。

slowly rise in concert with that that degradation of sleep? It's it's a more recent thing and I just don't think that those lines uh uh line up in a good way.

>>好的。你有什麼想法？

>> Okay. Shall we move on? Jos, your next argument. You have two minutes to present it.

>>嗯，我認為我們沒有充分討論社群媒體對睡眠的影響。

>> Adolescent brains are undergoing a significant reorganization. We have to look at the developmental course of a kid. Um there are basically two times in our life where our brain is changing

>>是的，這是一個重要的因素。很多青少年晚上在床上使用他們的手機，這會乾擾他們的睡眠。

like drastically. One when we're a newborn baby and the other is puberty.

>>對。睡眠不足與各種心理健康問題有關，包括抑鬱和焦慮。

And the changes in young adolescents tend to amplify their reactivity to stress, increase their sensitivity to rewards, and it makes them very responsive to feedback from peers. And you can actually measure their

>>是的。所以，即使社群媒體本身沒有直接影響，它可能通過影響睡眠間接產生影響。

self-consciousness on their bodies. There was one study that put people of different ages inside an fMRI machine, and they told them that they were being watched by this camera that was being

>>對。這是一個很好的觀點。

monitored by a peer of the same gender.

>>我想談的另一件事是社交比較的問題。

There was like no camera, but there was this fake uh camera on, camera off indicator, and they measured their like sweaty palms and the activity in a part of their brain that's associated with

>>是的，這是社群媒體的一個眾所週知的問題。人們傾向於在社群媒體上分享他們生活的精選版本。

social and emotional processing. And the response just peaks at age 15. So, if you were to pick a time in a kid's life to plug their brain into the bizarro

>>對。所以當你看其他人的帖子時，你可能會覺得每個人的生活都比你的更好、更有趣、更成功。

world of social media, 12, 13, 14, 15, they would be the worst times you can pick. At those ages, they're more likely to adopt other people's evaluations of themselves. Um, the likes and and

>>這可能導致自尊問題和不滿足感。

feedback that they get are more neurologically rewarding and more likely to shape their behavior. And isolation and rejection are especially damaging.

>>是的，研究確實顯示社交比較是社群媒體影響心理健康的一種方式。

So, it's really important for these young adoles adolesccents to be interacting with their peers, taking risks, learning from each other. But you really want that to happen through shared experiences, not the kind of

>>好的。還有什麼我們沒有涵蓋的？

asynchronous, superficial social comparison that these apps encourage.

>>嗯，我認為我們沒有充分討論網路霸凌。

And so I think this developmental perspective really helps us understand that if you're going to get this layer of digital social feedback on top of your real life interactions. Um it

>>是的，這是一個嚴重的問題。社群媒體為霸凌提供了新的平臺。

shouldn't come like right when their brains are being uh tuned up for social status cues and for self-consciousness.

>>對。以前，霸凌主要發生在學校，當你回到家時就結束了。

>> I I think it can help us understand sort of an imagined possibility of what might happen. Um, but you know, I don't need an fMRI machine to tell me that I was

>>但現在，它可以隨時隨地發生，這可能使它更難逃避。

awkward when I was 14 or that I struggled with with social, you know, feedback and that sort of thing. That is just of course part of of being a teenager, being an adolescent growing

>>是的。而且它可以更公開，更多人可以看到，這可能更加羞辱。

up. Um, and I think that it would be wrong to say that social media has exponentially increased those pressures for people. Like, sure, it's in your pocket, but you know, in the 1980s, they

>>這是一個重要的問題。好的，我認為我們已經涵蓋了很多。

had burn books. You know what those are?

>>是的。我希望這對觀眾有幫助。

Like the the passound notebooks that had like anonymous basically tweets about people in the school. I mean, there's always teenagers have always found a way to be mean to each other and nice to

>>我也是。好的，我們要結束了。

each other and, you know, all of the complex interactions that happen during that time. Um, and so I think it would a be a mistake to overinflate how much

>>好的。感謝收看！

social media is changing that dynamic and b I don't think we want to lean too much into invoking neuroscience because while neuroscience can help us understand this developmental time and

>>再見！

it clearly is so important, the neuroscience research on this specifically hasn't really found anything definitive. They've looked for changes in the brain structure and organization and activation and they haven't really found something

好的，所以讓我們回顧一下。這場辯論的核心問題是：社群媒體是否正在傷害青少年的心理健康？

significant. And then at the end of the day, you have to connect those brain changes, if we ever found any, to real changes in people's mental health. And

>>是的。這是一個重要的問題，因為青少年心理健康確實在過去幾年惡化了。

so even if this is a very important period in in a child's life, that doesn't mean that harm is happening.

>>對。問題是是否可以將此歸咎於社群媒體。

>> It means that they're most vulnerable during that time, right? Like I don't think anyone would deny that that there are differences in how kids are going to receive the kind of information that

>>我認為有一些證據表明社群媒體可能是一個因素。

they receive on social media if they are 12 years old versus 16 years old versus 18 years old. Um and I would just ask like would you want to go through high

>>是的，但證據並不那麼確鑿。效果量很小，證據並不一致。

school the way these kids are? Like when I was in high school, if I if I was going to find out that my friends were hanging out without me, I would have had

>>對。這就是為什麼這是一個如此有爭議的話題。

to like get in my car or have my mom drive me over to their house to like see what other cars were there or, you know, like you just wouldn't know. Um, and now

>>是的。專家們不同意，這是一個複雜的問題，沒有簡單的答案。

they always know, right? These kids are posting stories of what they're doing every day, which gives you material to analyze about who is in every single story every single day. like the volume

>>我認為最重要的是保持開放的態度，繼續關注這方面的研究。

of information about social cues, the possibilities for misunderstandings and for conflict and drama are overwhelming.

>>同意。好的，這就是這次的內容。

>> Well, I don't think that that it would be a good idea for me, like for us old folks, to like look at this other way of

>>感謝收看。我們會在下次見到你！

living and say, "Well, that's not how I, you know, I wouldn't want to live that way." I think we can just ask the the teens how they're feeling. And when you

>>再見！

do ask them, a lot of them call it a positive part of their life. You know, there's been surveys where, you know, four I think it's 44% say that social

等一下，我還有一件事想說。

media made them feel better. 10% said it made made them feel worse. The rest said h doesn't really matter to me. Um, and so I think that, you know, we don't have

>>好的，說吧。

to imagine like the hellscape that middle school would be right now. We can just ask the the middle schoolers and they say they're doing okay.

>>我認為無論社群媒體是否是問題的根源，我們都應該認真考慮青少年如何使用這些平臺。

In this round, you each get to ask one another a question. Joss, I'll start with you.

>>同意。家長和教育者有責任幫助青少年健康地使用社群媒體。

>> In your last video, you said that childhoodled exposure affected adult IQ and had major cascading effects on societies as a result. The effect size on that is small. It's between 0.1 and

>>對。這意味著設定界限、監督使用，並與他們討論在線上看到的內容。

2. Uh don't you think that a small effect uh in studies on social media could have similarly large societal effects when essentially the entire population of young people has been exposed?

>>是的。這也意味著教他們批判性思考，這樣他們就不會盲目相信在社群媒體上看到的一切。

>> Well, I would say that with lead it's a different story because this is a toxin that we can actually see working in the brain. So we don't have to guess like is

>>對。好的，現在我們真的結束了。

there something happening in the brain? Is there something happening with mental health? We can look and see, oh, there's lead in this person's brain and here's what it's doing at a molecular cellular

>>好的。感謝收看！

level and we can trace that connection all the way up into people's lives. It's been heavily studied. So, I'm more confident that a small effect size is

>>再見！

real and not just a a product of of statistical noise.

好的，所以我們今天做了很多。讓我快速回顧一下。

>> I think that what you're saying would bias us against things that are hard to study. You know, like it's true we don't know, we don't have a

>>好的。

a neur neural mechanism for the way that social media could be causing harm, but this is a massive shift in the lives of kids. And I think that we really need to

>>我們進行了一場關於社群媒體是否正在傷害青少年心理健康的辯論。

entertain the idea that the harms are harder to capture, but that doesn't mean that they're less real. And the fact that we haven't established a kind of like toxicology to it doesn't mean that

>>是的。Joss為這個觀點辯護，而我反對。

we should dismiss it when we see these kids crying out for help.

>>對。我們看了不同類型的證據，包括人口數據、相關性研究、縱向研究和實驗研究。

>> Okay, might move on. Adam, your doctor got your question.

>>是的。每種證據都有其優點和缺點。

>> All right, so my question comes from a specific paper, but I think it's this is the kind of result that's been found in multiple papers, but I'm just picking

>>對。最後，我們討論了一些沒有時間在辯論中涵蓋的額外要點。

this one uh specifically. It was a longitudinal study where instead of just asking people about their smartphone use, they actually followed exactly every time they picked up the phone,

>>包括社群媒體對睡眠的影響、社交比較的問題和網路霸凌。

every time they opened an app, how much time they spent on it. So it was much more reliable and granular data than than we get from a lot of these surveys.

>>是的。好的，這真的是這次的全部內容了。

They followed these teens for 12 months. Uh and then at the end of that time they asked you know could we see any relationship between social media use

>>感謝收看！別忘了訂閱和點讚。

and how people felt and they found and I'll quote from the study we found little evidence that withinerson fluctuations in screen time or social media use were associated with increases

>>我們會在下次見到你。再見！

in negative mood as frequently theorized. So basically, they're looking not at big populations, but just as individual people, if you use more social media, do you feel worse? And

>>再見！

they didn't find an effect. How can that be? If this is something that's driving a mental health crisis, why don't we see even a small effect there that that

我想分享一些我認為每個人都應該知道的最終想法。

might explain, you know, how that could cascade into a crisis?

>>好的，說吧。

>> Well, there's a few things I would need to know about that study. I don't know if it's one of the ones that I read. I need to know what how they're defining

>>首先，心理健康是一個複雜的問題，沒有單一的原因。

social media, right? >> I can tell you that this did distinguish between screen time and specific they called social communication apps. That would be places where you could send Instagram, Tik Tok, Snapchat.

>>同意。把所有問題都歸咎於社群媒體過於簡單化了。

>> Again, I would say we need to look at the gender effects. We need to look at the age effects. And what I'm seeing is that the younger girls are the ones that

>>對。第二，我們不應該忽視科技的潛在好處。

we need to be worried about. And those are the also the ones who are showing up the most at the emergency departments and the and the suicide rates that are rising the fastest.

>>是的。社群媒體可以幫助人們建立聯繫，找到社區，獲取信息。

>> In this round, you need to call out a talking point of the other side that you don't like. So, Adam, you'll be up first. I don't like it when people so

>>對。第三，我們需要更好的研究來理解正在發生什麼。

easily conflate drug uh addiction and alcoholism with social media use. A new addiction has emerged in younger generations. Not drugs or alcohol, an addiction to social media.

>>同意。目前的研究有局限性，我們需要更多長期的、嚴謹的研究。

>> I just think that we know a lot about how drug addiction works in the brain, and that's just not what we see with social media. And so even if I were to

>>是的。最後，無論研究結果如何，我們都應該努力創造一個對青少年更健康的數位環境。

concede that Jos is correct on every every one of her points, I still don't think it would be particularly useful to constantly say that social media is like

>>絕對同意。這需要家長、教育者、科技公司和政策制定者的共同努力。

heroin or meth or something that is that we know is a sort of distinct problem and has a very different way of of interacting with our brain. People like

>>好的，這就是我們今天想說的一切。

to invoke dopamine all over the place. you know, dopamine is sort of this incredible signal that's in our brains that's used for all kinds of stuff. So, you can always find a dopamine

>>感謝收看。希望你學到了一些東西。

connection. Uh, I just don't think that's a useful uh thing to pursue.

>>我們會在下次見到你。保重！

>> And Jos, your pet peeve. >> So, my pet peeve is when I think mostly progressives try to dodge this conversation by saying that minority kids benefit from social media.

>>再見！

Something I have talked about on the show is being worried that if we take social media away from kids, it could make life harder for LGBT kids in particular

讓我談談社群媒體平臺本身可以做些什麼來改善情況。

>> because they find other kids who are like them that they might not find in their school community or in their hometown. And when you look at surveys,

>>好的，這是一個重要的話題。

you do find that black and Hispanic teenagers spend more time online than their white peers. uh gay by and trans kids also log a lot more hours on social

>>首先，他們可以改變他們的算法，減少推薦可能有害的內容。

media than straight and cis kids and yes it's likely that they are able to find connections and representation but I think that really needs to be weighed against the fact that social media is

>>是的。比如，減少推薦與飲食失調或自我傷害相關的內容。

full of hateful content and online spaces expose them to racists and bigots who think that they can get away with slurs and harassment because most of the

>>對。第二，他們可以給用戶更多控制他們看到什麼的工具。

time they can. Um, and so 70% of black teenagers in the US say that online harassment and bullying are a major problem compared to 46% of white teens.

>>比如更好的隱私設置和過濾選項。

And when you ask Gen Z how social media has impacted their emotional health, LGBT respondents are more likely to say that it's had a negative effect on their emotional health compared to non-LGBT

>>是的。第三，他們可以更加透明他們的算法是如何工作的。

respondents. So, I certainly don't see any evidence that social media has been a net positive for teens from marginalized groups. Their mental health outcomes are worse. They're not better.

>>這會讓研究人員更容易研究這些平臺的影響。

And we need to do the work of making real supportive spaces in the physical world and not assume that they are finding that support online.

>>對。最後，他們可以在平臺上投資更多的心理健康資源。

>> In the next round, it's time for you each to concede a point. Uh, Adam, you can go first. I think one benefit that this debate has had is that it is a call

>>比如自殺預防資源和心理健康支持線的鏈接。

for us to pay more attention to teens mental health. And I think that that is something that's really needed.

>>是的。好的，我認為我們已經涵蓋了這個話題的很多方面。

we even if we aren't in a in an unprecedented me mental health crisis, even if we haven't quite figured out what's causing it, I still think we need to understand what is causing anxiety,

>>同意。這是一個複雜的問題，需要多方面的解決方案。

depression, loneliness in youth and try to help them. Um, and I think that that this energy that is currently being pointed towards social media is coming

>>對。好的，這就是這次的全部內容。

from a really good place and that is to listen to kids and try to help them. And Joss, do you have a point to concede?

>>感謝收看！如果你有任何問題或評論，請在下方留言。

>> I do. I would say that I do not think it's particularly useful to go around saying that smartphones or social media have destroyed a generation. um the

>>我們會在下次見到你。保重！

message that they're saying is that like this whole generation is afflicted um in a kind of doomemory way and I've seen some studies really interesting work suggesting that the mindset that people

>>再見！

have about social media can affect their experience of it and so it's really important for young people and for people like all of us who are trying to

最後一件事。我想鼓勵每個正在掙紮的人尋求幫助。

figure out how to manage our time on these apps to believe that they have agency and that um while these apps are designed to keep them hooked. We can be

>>同意。如果你正在經歷心理健康問題，請與某人交談。

aware of the techniques that they use to manipulate us and that we can implement changes. So, I think uh I think it's important not to go around saying that this generation is destroyed and

>>可以是朋友、家人、老師、學校輔導員，或者心理健康專業人員。

hopeless and depressed and anxious. We're talking about a subset of kids who we really need to be worried about.

>>是的。你不必獨自面對這些問題。

>> You'll each have one minute for your closing statements. Adam, you're up first.

>>對。我們會在說明中放一些心理健康資源的鏈接。

>> It might be true that the hundreds and hundreds of studies, this overwhelming collection of research that we've done so far hasn't fully captured exactly how social media is affecting teens. But

>>好的。保重你自己，也保重你週圍的人。

that said, there's no telling what those hypothetical future perfect experiments would reveal. And I don't think that Joss has shown consistent robust evidence linking social media to this mental health crisis. the evidence just

>>好的。這就是今天的全部內容。感謝收看！

isn't there. Maybe it will be there, but it's not there right now. And so, we can't act on this sort of feeling that maybe future studies would reveal

>>再見！

something. I think this is an attractive hypothesis because it sort of presies on our desire to judge the way that younger generations spend their time. And it's simple, but really there are more

好的，我們錄製了很長時間。讓我們結束吧。

complex solutions that we we know will help kids. And if we really want to help kids mental health, we need to lift them out of poverty. We need to protect them

>>同意。我們說了很多。

from abuse. We need to provide care for mental health problems no matter where those mental health problems come from.

>>是的。希望觀眾覺得這有用。

And this discussion is a distraction from those real steps we can take right now with great confidence.

>>我也是。好的，我們要關閉了。

>> Okay. And Joss, your closing argument. >> This is not a situation where we are looking at this new technology and asking, is it safe enough to send our

>>好的。感謝收看。訂閱我們的頻道以獲取更多類似的內容。

kids into there? They're already in there. It's already happening. And when I think back about how I spent my middle school and high school days, I never had

>>是的。我們每週都會發布新視頻。

to worry about any goofy or emotional or even ignorant moment being recorded, posted, and shared. I didn't have to think about how my messages could be screenshotted, shared out of context to

>>好的。我們會在下次見到你。

live forever. I didn't have to think about how I looked in pictures because there were so few of them. But those are just things that are true of being a kid

>>保重！

today, no matter how many hours any one of them reports spending on social media in a survey. I do wish that Gen Z and Gen Alpha had the childhood that I did.

>>再見！

And maybe maybe every generation says that, but they want that for themselves, too. Okay. More than 40% of Gen Z's in the US say that they wish Snapchat and

好的，最後的最後。你對今天的辯論有什麼感想？

Tik Tok were never invented. In the UK, more than half of teen girls say they wish they could have been young in a world without the internet. And in the

>>我認為這是一個有用的練習。它迫使我們真正思考雙方的論點。

meantime, Mark Zuckerberg wants to give everybody artificial friends projected into headsets as a solution. Because after he connected the world online, it turns out more kids are lonely and feeling left out than before.

>>同意。我認為觀眾也會覺得有趣。

>> Who was right? Who was wrong? Who won the fight? Was it Adam or Jos? Go and vote on our Patreon where we'll discuss what we really.

>>希望如此。好的，我們真的要結束了。

>> Do you want to on the count of three say who we think won?

>>好的。感謝收看。我們會在下次見到你！

>> Okay. >> Okay. 1 2 3 showdown. We're glad you stuck around so you could get the low down.

>>再見！

>> Get 10% off Riverside at the link below.

>>再見！