keeping with users at the center of our theme here where I'm really excited to bring up our next speaker to the stage to talk about how the customer should be

延續我們以用戶為中心的主題，我非常興奮能邀請下一位講者上臺，談談客戶應該如何

at the center of your copy experience as well Joanna Wiebe is the founder of copy hackers and CH agency we're fast growing startups transform timid messages and to standout scalable digital salespeople

成為你文案體驗的核心。Joanna Wiebe 是 Copy Hackers 和 CH Agency 的創辦人，專門幫助快速成長的新創公司，將膽怯的訊息轉化為出色、可規模化的數位銷售人員

she's no stranger to the stage she's taught conversion copywriting to over 100 international stages including mosque on inbound conversion Excel live search love and now the Google conversion summit so welcome Joanna ok

她對舞臺並不陌生，她已在超過一百個國際舞臺上教授轉換文案寫作，包括 MozCon、Inbound、ConversionXL Live、SearchLove，以及現在的 Google 轉換峰會。歡迎 Joanna！

cool thanks thank you very much hello unload got chopsticks somewhere I know I'll be using it throughout ok so yeah we've been hearing a lot about empathy and listening and all of that

太棒了，謝謝！非常感謝。大家好！我知道我手邊有筷子，我會在整場演講中用到它們。好的，我們一直在聽很多關於同理心和傾聽的內容

fantastic stuff but what a lot of us don't know is that when you're doing all of these great listening exercises you can take everything you learn there and

這些都是很棒的東西，但我們很多人不知道的是，當你做這些很棒的傾聽練習時，你可以把學到的一切拿來

use it to write really badass coffee too so I'm gonna talk to you today about exactly how we do exactly this taking voice of customer data everything you're collecting as you're building vans and

用來寫出真正厲害的文案。所以今天我要告訴你們，我們是如何做到這一點的——取用客戶之聲的數據，收集你在建立品牌時獲得的所有資訊

doing other stuff and actually turning it into copy that speaks directly to your prospect I'm just gonna make sure this works so we're at a place where

以及其他工作，然後把它轉化成能直接對潛在客戶說話的文案。我先確認一下這個能不能用，好的，我們現在到了一個

when we talk about writing copy if you write copy or if someone on your team writes copy you might have heard that you know you want to write copy that

當我們談到寫文案時，如果你自己寫文案，或者團隊中有人寫文案，你可能聽說過你要寫出讓

people see themselves in that's why we use voice of customer data to write that copy so you can actually see themselves in the words that you're using but it's

人們能在其中看到自己的文案。這就是為什麼我們使用客戶之聲數據來寫文案，這樣他們實際上能在你使用的詞語中看到自己。但這不僅僅是

not just themselves it's actually their current and immediate next selves that's like one of the bigger things to keep in mind when you are listening to voices customer data what do people believe

他們自己，實際上是他們當前和即將到來的自我版本。這是在你傾聽客戶之聲數據時要記住的重要事情之一：人們現在相信什麼

about themselves today and what do they want immediately next so a really clear example is if you're selling weight loss solutions like Weight Watchers the Media next version of oneself is like I

關於他們自己的事，以及他們接下來最想要什麼。一個很清楚的例子是，如果你在賣減重解決方案，比如 Weight Watchers，那個即將到來的自我版本就像是：我

lost three pounds seven days later I lost eight pounds a week or two weeks later versus I lost 300 pounds in three years that's like way down the road it's

七天後瘦了三磅，一兩週後瘦了八磅，而不是三年瘦了三百磅。那太遙遠了，這是

a really hard thing to sell people on so we want to listen for things that speak directly to who we are now and who that immediate next version of our customers

一件很難說服人們的事。所以我們要傾聽那些直接對應我們現在是誰、以及客戶使用我們的解決方案後即將成為誰的內容

are going to be once they use our solution so we have to match where they are and then show them their next sells but how do we get there with voice of

我們必須匹配他們現在的狀態，然後向他們展示他們的下一個自我。但是我們如何通過客戶之聲做到這一點呢？

customer data so we talked about using BOC a lot but when it comes down to it it can be kind of hard to actually know

我們經常談論使用 VOC，但當真正要做的時候，要知道如何實際操作可能會有點困難

how to do that in practice so you can do a survey and you can have all this great qualitative data in it and now you're supposed to write an ad that drives to a

在實踐中如何做到這一點。你可以做問捲調查，收集所有這些很棒的質性數據，然後你應該寫一個廣告來導向一個

landing page which we'll see use voice of customer to make that happen but what do we normally do instead do you go straight to the survey data and start

落地頁，我們會展示如何使用客戶之聲來實現這一點。但我們通常會怎麼做呢？你會直接去看問捲數據並開始

taking what you're learning in that data and putting it on the page or do you do the thing where you sit around in a boardroom so as a little exercise um mr.

把你從數據中學到的東西放到頁面上，還是你會做那種坐在會議室裡的事？作為一個小練習，羅傑斯先生

Rogers fantastic man Tom Hanks is pretty good and I'm looking forward to the movie if you guys don't know what I'm talking about Tom Hanks is gonna be mr.

是個了不起的人，湯姆漢克斯演得很好，我很期待這部電影。如果你們不知道我在說什麼，湯姆漢克斯將要演

Rogers in a movie about him and if you don't know mr. Rogers is am very sorry for you cuz he was like you know instrumental for making me who I am

一部關於羅傑斯先生的電影。如果你不認識羅傑斯先生，我真的很抱歉，因為他對塑造現在的我很重要

thank you mr. Rogers learned a ton about you know life from him but also yes about writing copy so mr. Rogers when he sits down to write a song he does

謝謝你，羅傑斯先生。我從他那裡學到了很多關於生活的事，也學到了關於寫文案的事。羅傑斯先生在坐下來寫歌時會做

something that or did do because he's passed now his life is a little bit the way that he approached it would be a little bit differently from how we would

一些事情，他現在已經過世了，他的生活方式和他處理事情的方式跟我們會做的有點不同

so we were to sit down to write a song for kids which was mr. Rogers whole job what would we do it's time to write a song for kids what do you do

所以如果我們要坐下來為孩子寫一首歌，這是羅傑斯先生的全部工作，我們會怎麼做？是時候為孩子寫一首歌了，你會怎麼做？

what are you write about what do kids what do kids want a song about any ideas sometimes right we might say I don't know in the first place now the people

你會寫什麼？孩子們想要什麼樣的歌？有什麼想法嗎？有時候我們可能會說一開始不知道，現在有些人

are like well they like Tandy and cats and things like that mr. Rogers of course spent his life listening to the children that he was going to make songs

會說他們喜歡糖果、貓咪之類的東西。羅傑斯先生當然花了一輩子傾聽他要為之創作歌曲的孩子們

for and he was going to speak to and so the opening line for this song is what do you do with the mad that you feel

他要對他們說話，所以這首歌的開場白是：當你感到生氣時，你會怎麼處理那種憤怒？

when you feel so mad you could buy it where did that come from that Mister Rogers sitting around thinking I think this is how kids talk then kids say this

當你生氣到想咬人時？這是從哪裡來的？是羅傑斯先生坐在那裡想「我覺得孩子們會這樣說」，孩子們會說這些嗎？

or did he actually go out and listen and this is absolutely an actual snippet that a child said to him what do you do with the mad that you feel when you feel

還是他真的出去傾聽了？這絕對是一個孩子對他說的真實片段：當你感到生氣到想咬人時，你會怎麼處理那種憤怒？

so mad you could bite you can feel everything going on with that kid right that kid has a red face he is worked up what do you do with the mad that you

你可以感受到那個孩子正在經歷的一切，對吧？那個孩子臉都紅了，他很激動。當你感到生氣到

feel when you feel some mad you could buy it and he made a whole song out of this not by sitting around and imagining what do kids think about and what do

想咬人時，你會怎麼處理那種憤怒？他用這個寫了一整首歌，不是坐在那裡想像孩子們在想什麼、關心什麼

they care about what do they want to hear a song about but by actually listening to them so what if we were to do the same sorts of things we could

想聽什麼樣的歌，而是真正傾聽他們。所以如果我們也做同樣的事情，我們可以

have real impact not just some weird little thing that some little message that nobody cares about but something that actually gets through to people so the mr. Rogers school of songwriting

產生真正的影響，不只是一些奇怪的小東西或沒人在乎的小訊息，而是真正能觸及人心的東西。所以羅傑斯先生的歌曲創作學派

goes something like this it's a little formula you take what your audience says you do the things that make it into a song so you make it rhyme you layer it

大概是這樣的：這是一個小公式。你取用觀眾說的話，然後做那些讓它變成歌曲的事情，讓它押韻，加上音樂

over music and then you have something that is ready to put out in front of people and see if it works you sing it to kids see if they like it sing it

然後你就有了可以放在人們面前看看是否有效的東西。你唱給孩子聽，看他們喜不喜歡，再唱一次

again sing a little differently you put it out there so we can do the same things that mr. Rogers would do but we can do it with our copy so we take what

稍微調整一下再唱。你把它放出去。所以我們可以做羅傑斯先生會做的同樣的事情，但我們可以用文案來做。我們取用

our audience says the things that they're saying like sticky language they use that stuff that when you hear it it sounds different from what you would

我們的觀眾說的話，他們使用的那些黏著語言，那些當你聽到時會覺得跟你自己會說的不同的東西

say or from what your boss wants you to say or from what you would say in a boardroom as you're all sitting around thinking about what should our message

或者跟你老闆要你說的不同，或者跟你們在會議室裡一起想「我們的訊息應該是什麼」時會說的不同

be so you want to listen for the sticky language that people use the themes and the messages from the voice of the customer so we're doing that in all

所以你要傾聽人們使用的黏著語言、客戶之聲中的主題和訊息。我們在各種不同的

sorts of different forms and we'll get into how then you push it through you make it into copy you write you push it through copywriting frameworks and formulas and you apply those better

形式中做這件事，我們會講到如何把它推進，變成文案，寫作，通過文案寫作框架和公式，應用那些更好的實踐

practices and then you come up with validation ready copy same formula mr. Rogers uses we're gonna try it ourselves instead validation can look like internal validation where

然後你會得到準備好驗證的文案。同樣的公式，羅傑斯先生用的，我們自己來試試。驗證可以是內部驗證，就是

you're like okay as a team can we use some sort of heuristic analysis to identify if this copies on track or not and then external validation is actually

作為一個團隊，我們可以用某種啟發式分析來判斷這個文案是否走在正確的軌道上嗎？然後外部驗證就是實際

putting it out there doing a/b tests things like that so here's an example of how that works so we were working with a rehab center a couple years back we were

把它放出去，做 A/B 測試之類的。這裡有一個例子說明這是如何運作的。幾年前我們在幫一家戒毒中心工作

rewriting their homepage okay how do you write a homepage headline for a rehab center so we went over to Amazon Amazon is a great place to go anywhere that you

重寫他們的首頁。好的，你要怎麼為戒毒中心寫首頁標題？所以我們去了亞馬遜，亞馬遜是個很棒的地方，任何你

can find word reviews at all Amazon is just a really like natural example but anywhere you can find reviews that people leave about products that are similar to yours and if you're not

可以找到詞評論的地方。亞馬遜只是一個很自然的例子，但任何你可以找到人們對類似你的產品留下評論的地方，如果你不是

selling a product then something that they're hiring to do the job they should hire you to do or your solution to do so we looked at like six different books on

在賣產品，那就是人們用來做他們應該僱用你或你的解決方案來做的工作的東西。我們看了大約六本關於

alcoholism on dealing with people who are addicts and it wasn't the books that we looked through it was the comments that people left the reviews that they left about the books reading through

酗酒、如何對待成癮者的書。我們看的不是書本身，而是人們留下的評論，關於這些書的評論，閱讀了

hundreds sometimes but really quickly to get to a place where we finally heard this what I learned is this is somebody left this in in a review what I learned

有時候數百條，但真的很快就到達一個點，我們終於聽到了這個：有人在評論中留下這句話——我學到的是

is if you think you need rehab you do so this was something that stood out to us nobody else was really saying anything like this what do you mean if you think

如果你認為你需要戒毒，那你就是需要。這是讓我們印象深刻的東西，沒有其他人真的說過這樣的話。你是什麼意思，如果你認為

you need rehab you do so we pushed that through a really simple framework which is actually sounds pretty good over to do much to it so we didn't do much to it

你需要戒毒，你就是需要？所以我們把它通過一個非常簡單的框架，其實聽起來已經很好了，不用做太多改動，所以我們沒做太多

we just did if you think you need rehab you do we turn it into a headline for the home page we tested it against the control which was just a really basic

我們只是改成「如果你認為你需要戒毒，你就是需要」。我們把它變成首頁的標題，然後對照控制組測試，控制組只是一個非常基本的

straightforward like come to our rehab kind of thing against a testimonial and against a data point and internally our validation we were like okay let's vote

直接的像「來我們的戒毒中心」之類的東西，對照一個見證，對照一個數據點。在內部驗證時我們說好，讓我們投票

which one do we think is gonna win and we did like we took bets and nobody bet on this one I didn't even bet on this

我們認為哪個會贏，我們打了賭，沒有人賭這個。我連我自己都沒有賭

one and I wrote the damn thing if you think you need to rehab you do is like no it's not gonna work it's too different it feels wrong the real thing

這個，而且這個還是我寫的。「如果你認為你需要戒毒，你就是需要」，感覺不會成功，太不一樣了，感覺不對。真正

that's going on here and I'm gonna get into the results of it that was our internal validation we're asking ourselves when we're writing copy that converts you want to ask yourself is

發生的事情是——我會講結果——這是我們的內部驗證。我們在寫轉換文案時要問自己：

this so far out of our comfort zone that it could either be a huge breakthrough or like an embarrassing giant bust is it so different from what we are used to is

這是不是太超出我們的舒適區了，可能要麼是一個巨大的突破，要麼是一個令人尷尬的大失敗？它是不是跟我們習慣的太不一樣了？

it going to make everybody around us so uncomfortable some will think this is a this is a sure winner and others will think this is going to like embarrass us

它會不會讓我們週圍的每個人都非常不舒服？有些人會認為這是必勝的，其他人會認為這會讓我們在公眾面前丟臉？

publicly you don't know the answer and that's a good place to be at test copy almost none of us ever get there like who gets there and runs that test it's a

你不知道答案，這就是測試文案的好狀態。我們幾乎沒有人會達到那裡並運行那個測試。這是一件很可怕的事情

very scary thing to do but we try to do that we aim for that this was different enough no other rehab centers were saying anything like this and so we went

但我們試著做到這一點。這足夠不同了，沒有其他戒毒中心說過這樣的話，所以我們就

with that we tested it nobody thought it was gonna win we went with it anyway and of course that turned into up story that's going backward to the winner

這樣做了，我們測試了它，沒有人認為它會贏，我們還是做了，當然這變成了一個成功的故事——這是回到勝者的

right so we had a big breakthrough on this one when we tested it on the homepage alone we had 400% more clicks through to the next page and on the next

對吧，所以我們在這個上面有了一個大突破。當我們在首頁單獨測試它時，我們的點擊率提高了 400%，到下一頁，然後在下一頁

page which was the lead gen page 26% more leads completed they're all attributed to this one headline change which is a really big deal a really good breakthrough and importantly nobody

是潛在客戶頁面，多了 26% 的潛在客戶完成。這都歸功於這一個標題的改變，這是一個很大的突破，而且重要的是沒有人

thought it was going to work nobody thought it was the one but we took the language from what customers are actually saying and we used that you took a chance on actually listening to

認為它會有效，沒有人認為它是那個贏家，但我們從客戶實際說的話中提取了語言並使用它。你冒險去真正傾聽

your customers and just using their own words to convert them because why would our words work better than their words to convert them it doesn't make any sense of course their words are more

你的客戶，然後用他們自己的話來轉換他們。因為為什麼我們的話會比他們的話更能轉換他們呢？這根本沒有道理，當然他們的話更

likely to work than ours are ok another example for e-commerce anybody ecommerce in the room sweat block is a solution I don't know if it is heard of it but

可能有效。好的，另一個電商的例子，有人做電商嗎？Sweat Block 是一個解決方案，我不知道你們有沒有聽過，但

sweat block is a little towelette that you use if you have hyperhidrosis which is you sweat a lot you sweat behind your knees you sweat on your hands you sweat

Sweat Block 是一種小濕紙巾，如果你有多汗症，就是你會大量出汗——你膝蓋後面出汗，手上出汗

on your face you sweat all over the place so he went through the views for this moist towelette sweat block and there were 5000 of them on

臉上出汗，全身到處出汗。所以我們看了這個濕紙巾 Sweat Block 的評論，亞馬遜上有五千條

Amazon just a lot so we had a lot of data to work with and people were saying the usual things but others were giving us interesting insights like I sweat all

評論，很多，所以我們有很多數據可以用。人們說了一些常見的東西，但其他人給了我們有趣的見解，比如「我一直在出汗

the time it doesn't even have to be hot out I'm sweating even when the a/c is on it was like okay alright cool we're listening or paying attention and we

不一定要熱，空調開著我也在出汗」。我們想好的，我們在傾聽，在注意，然後我們

pushed that what we were hearing through some pretty good best practices like can we take that and keep it in the first person put it in quotation marks make

把我們聽到的通過一些很好的最佳實踐，比如我們可以把它保持第一人稱，放在引號裡，讓

that the headline that's a really good practice for your headlines first person in quotation marks and can we lead with a visceral problem on the page so we're writing a landing page where you

它成為標題，這對你的標題來說是一個很好的做法——第一人稱加引號。我們能不能在頁面上以一個直擊痛點的問題開頭？我們在寫一個落地頁，你

normally start with a product shot and we were like let's not start with a product shot let's start with the problem shot people are sitting here thinking this horrible problem they have

通常會以產品照片開始，我們想不要以產品照片開始，讓我們以問題照片開始。人們坐在那裡想著他們有這個可怕的問題

about sweating even when like it's not even hot oh there's no excuse for sweating so he took that pushed it through those better practices I wrote this headline it doesn't even have to be

關於出汗，即使不熱也在出汗，沒有藉口。所以我們取用了那個，通過那些更好的實踐，我寫了這個標題：「不一定要熱啊」

hot oh my armpits are always wet now if you are somebody who deals with this problem and you read that headline that's gonna speak a lot better than

「我的腋下總是濕的」。如果你是處理這個問題的人，你讀到這個標題，它會比

somebody you're just saying like be dry or something like that breakthrough 50% approximately more paid conversions okay cool so we're seeing that there might be something to this it doesn't mean you're

你只是說「保持乾爽」之類的更能引起共鳴。突破：付費轉換大約增加了 50%。好的，所以我們看到這可能有些道理。這不代表你

always gonna win when you use voice of customer data but it's so much stronger to base hypothesis on if it comes from BOC so we do this all the time we did

用客戶之聲數據總是會贏，但它作為假設的基礎要強大得多，如果它來自 VOC。我們一直在做這件事

this with Wistia for their emails where we had three hundred fifty percent increase in paid conversions for them nearly 20% drop in turn four canva we had our own huge launch doing this stuff

我們為 Wistia 的電子郵件做了這個，付費轉換增加了 350%，流失率下降了近 20%。為 Canva 我們有自己的大發布也是用這個方法

so we do this stuff all the time that's all it is build up so you know that we do this all the time we tested all the time we're learning interesting things

所以我們一直在做這些事情。這都是為了讓你知道我們一直在做這個，一直在測試，一直在學習有趣的東西

as we go now when it comes down to it I can say oh here's the voice of customer and here's how we turn it into something

現在當真正要做的時候，我可以說這是客戶之聲，這是我們如何把它變成某些東西

and tell you go to but how do you actually do it how do you walk away from this and either go write the copy yourself using these techniques or help

然後告訴你去做，但你實際上要怎麼做呢？你要怎麼從這裡離開，然後用這些技巧自己寫文案，或者幫助

your copywriter or your agency whoever you work with follow this process you can use actual coffee that's based on what customers actually think and care about okay so we're gonna start with actual

你的文案寫手或你合作的代理商遵循這個流程？你可以使用基於客戶實際想法和關心的事情的文案。好的，讓我們從實際的

research so some of the more obvious well-known research you might do is interviewing customers doing surveys of new customers ex customers existing customers segments of them on-site polls

研究開始。一些比較明顯、眾所週知的研究你可能會做的是訪談客戶、對新客戶、前客戶、現有客戶的各個細分群體做問捲、網站投票

all of this kind of stuff follow me homes user tests etc what a copywriter adds because we're listening we want qualitative data wherever possible we love to add interviewing the founders so

所有這些東西、跟隨回家、用戶測試等等。文案寫手會加入的，因為我們在傾聽，我們想要盡可能多的質性數據，我們喜歡加入採訪創辦人

the owners of the company or the founders of the company they are as I see it the original customers they're the ones who felt a pain so viscerally

公司的老闆或創辦人。在我看來，他們是最初的客戶。他們是那些感受到一種痛苦如此強烈

so like intensely that they decided to build a solution for it and go out on a limb and start their own company just to solve this problem so

如此深刻，以至於決定為此建立一個解決方案，冒險出去創立自己的公司，就為了解決這個問題。所以

you want to interview the founder thank you paid surveys big deal we'll get into Thank You page surveys usertesting.com gets a bit of a bad rap in the

你要採訪創辦人。感謝頁問捲是很重要的，我們會講到。UserTesting.com 在轉換界有點名聲不好

conversion world and I don't really know why we learn tons of great stuff and they have actually a lot of users that you can segment and actually use mining

我不太知道為什麼，我們從那裡學到了很多很棒的東西，他們實際上有很多用戶，你可以細分並實際使用。挖掘

sales call recordings does anybody here do sales calls in their organization yeah a few people Enterprise in particular will do sales calls and if you can get your hands on sales call

銷售通話錄音，有人在這裡做銷售通話嗎？是的，有幾個人，特別是企業會做銷售通話。如果你能拿到銷售通話

recordings they are a goldmine like I can be the laziest person alive because like copywriters what are these sorry these people will actually do my job of

錄音，它們就是金礦。我可以當最懶的人，因為文案寫手，這些人實際上會幫我做

telling me exactly what words to use in these sales calls um so I'm gonna show you how we mine sales calls mining support tickets it's really easy I'm sure everybody already has support

告訴我要用什麼詞的工作，都在這些銷售通話裡。我會展示我們如何挖掘銷售通話。挖掘客服工單也很簡單，我相信每個人都已經有客服

tickets sitting somewhere that you're just not referencing mining Facebook comments - and this is like the list goes on from here but there are a lot of

工單放在某個地方，你只是沒有參考。挖掘 Facebook 評論等等。這個列表還可以繼續，但有很多

different things you can do the ones you should focus on are of course interviewing customers I wouldn't do a project without interviewing customers interviewing the founders Thank You page surveys usertesting.com a mining sales

不同的事情你可以做。你應該專注的當然是採訪客戶，我不會做一個項目而不採訪客戶、採訪創辦人、感謝頁問捲、UserTesting.com、挖掘銷售

call recordings as well as online review mining just because review mining is like you could do it right now like you could stop everything go over and look at products that are

通話錄音，以及線上評論挖掘，只因為評論挖掘你現在就可以做，你可以停下一切，去看看與你類似的產品

similar to yours or that you know your customers are hiring when they should be hiring you to do the work or your solution to do the work you can go over

或者你知道你的客戶在做他們應該僱用你或你的解決方案來做的工作時會使用的產品，你可以去

there and look at right now and start the job the job like immediately okay so with that understood those are like what we're working with to find Boyce's

那裡現在就看，立即開始工作。好的，理解了這些是我們用來找客戶之聲的東西

customer data how can we apply it in real life okay so we use interviews galore interviews are a big part of our process we use it to find the story so

數據，我們如何在現實生活中應用它？好的，我們大量使用訪談。訪談是我們流程中很大的一部分。我們用它來找故事

that's like the why for any simon Sinek fans in the room the value proposition and the big idea and you can do so much more with interviews but this one I'm

那就像是「為什麼」，對於任何 Simon Sinek 粉絲來說，價值主張和大創意，你可以用訪談做更多事情，但這個我要

going to actually show you so founder interviews in particular are really useful so if you were to try to identify a value prop for a solution here's how we run founder interviews so

實際展示給你看。創辦人訪談特別有用。如果你要試圖為一個解決方案確定價值主張，這是我們如何進行創辦人訪談

you have the interview on zoom' this is like really practical like exactly how to do it five steps have the interview on zoom' on video whatever and Google

在 Zoom 上進行訪談，這真的很實際，就是如何做的五個步驟。在 Zoom 上進行訪談，用視訊或 Google

Hangouts whatever it is that you guys use as long as there's video on you don't have to be in the same room with a person you don't have to make it awkward

Hangouts 或你們用的任何東西，只要有視訊。你不需要跟那個人在同一個房間，不需要讓它變得尷尬

just get on video and if they're not on video that's cool but you have to be on video take directional notes during so don't take notes about what they're

只要上視訊，如果他們不開視訊也可以，但你必須開視訊。做方向性筆記，不要記他們

saying but take notes about what ideas they're bringing out for you that you can then follow up on during the interview record the call with permission of course because then if you

說的話，而是記他們給你的想法，然後你可以在訪談中跟進。經許可錄製通話，因為如果你

don't record the call you have to take a lot of notes and you want to be listening more than anything so make sure that she record the call and if you

不錄製通話，你就得做很多筆記，你想要多聽而不是做其他事。所以確保錄製通話，如果你

can't record the call have somebody else there to take notes for you if you can record it use a solution like Reb comm to transcribe it and then print and read

不能錄製通話，讓別人在那裡幫你做筆記。如果你可以錄製，用像 Rev.com 這樣的服務來轉錄，然後列印並用螢光筆閱讀

the transcript with a highlighter it's really straightforward and it's like a must do so we were working in a lot of examples in here are going to be for a solution called

逐字稿。這很直接，是必做的事。我們在這裡的很多例子都是關於一個叫做

get Prime is anybody familiar with get Prime no it's basically google analytics for engineers is how they describe it so a lot of teams like sales departments marketing departments you have KPIs or

GitPrime 的解決方案，有人熟悉 GitPrime 嗎？沒有。它基本上是工程師的 Google Analytics，這是他們如何描述它的。很多團隊，像銷售部門、行銷部門，你有 KPI

you have ways of measuring if you're doing your job well engineers don't really have that and they get a lot of attention from you know the CFO in particular

或者你有衡量你是否做好工作的方法。工程師真的沒有這個，他們會受到特別是財務長的很多關注

who's like are we getting the value out of the engineering team or what so get Prime was invented by engineers to help measure engineers which sounds bad to some to engineers in particular

會問「我們是否從工程團隊得到了價值」之類的。所以 GitPrime 是工程師發明的，用來幫助衡量工程師，這聽起來對一些人來說很糟糕，特別是對工程師來說

and so we had to kind of work against that so we were looking for the value prop for this solution and I interviewed the founder and one of the things that

所以我們必須有點對抗這一點。我們在尋找這個解決方案的價值主張，我採訪了創辦人，他說的一件事是

he said is I always start with the assumption that most engineers love building you in a good way the good stuff building stuff but I always start with the assumption that most engineers

「我總是從一個假設開始，就是大多數工程師喜歡建造東西」，好的方面的建造，建造好東西。但我總是從一個假設開始，就是大多數工程師

love building okay what do I do with that that stands out that's good a lot of things stood out in the interview but that one in particular is like oh

喜歡建造。好的，我要怎麼用這個？這很突出，這很好，訪談中很多東西都很突出，但這個特別讓我覺得

I'm cool write that down come back to that later so I took that I wondered like might this be like at the core of their value prop so I took it I pushed

很酷，記下來，之後再回來看。所以我取用了那個，我想這可能是他們價值主張的核心嗎？所以我取用它，推進

it through some frameworks for actually writing a value prop like you want to speak something that's unique and highly desirable you want to suspend disbelief a little bit that gets into a big idea

通過一些實際寫價值主張的框架，比如你想說一些獨特且非常令人嚮往的東西，你想稍微暫停懷疑，這進入大創意

and you want whatever that value prop is it's customer-facing to be memorable and that turned into engineer's build business okay is it good though like is it actually gonna work out there so we

你想讓那個價值主張，面向客戶的那個，是令人難忘的。這變成了「工程師建造商業」。好的，但它好嗎？它實際上會有效嗎？我們

had to validate it so we do our internal validation and then you do external validation again internal is just looking through with different heuristics that you have for yourself so

必須驗證它。我們做內部驗證，然後做外部驗證。內部就是用你自己的不同啟發式方法來審視。所以

in this case we're like okay we have four different markets for different segments of people that we're going to talk to will this work for all of them will it work for stakeholders the

在這個案例中我們說好的，我們有四個不同的市場，四個不同的細分人群，這對他們所有人都有效嗎？對利益相關者有效嗎？

executive stakeholders story senior engineering leaders engineering operators and actual engineers yes we all believed that it would everybody involved in this project believe that it would will it speak across all of the

執行利益相關者、高級工程領導、工程運營者和實際的工程師？是的，參與這個項目的每個人都相信會有效。它會在所有

five pirate metrics for SAS acquisition activation retention revenue and referrals the answer was yes it will carry us through a carry a person through all of those things this belief

五個 SaaS 海盜指標中都有效嗎——獲取、啟動、留存、收入和推薦？答案是會的，它會帶著一個人通過所有這些，這個信念

that engineers build business might be big enough to carry people through and keep them investing in the product so we're cool with that we felt validated

「工程師建造商業」可能大到足以帶著人們通過並讓他們繼續投資產品。所以我們對此感覺不錯，我們覺得被驗證了

with that we put it out in the market and it works really well so they put it everywhere like you will likely do with a value prop and

我們把它放到市場上，效果非常好。他們把它放得到處都是，就像你可能會對一個價值主張做的那樣

this came not by us sitting around saying like what what sound cool like coming up with taglines and things like that that you might do but really just listening instead of trying to insert

這不是我們坐在那裡說「什麼聽起來很酷」、想出標語之類的你可能會做的事，而是真正傾聽，而不是試圖把

ourselves in the conversation second and this is a little detailed so we use sales calls like crazy and demo recordings like crazy for plotting sequences and hierarchies basically any funnel

我們自己插入對話中。第二個，這有點詳細，我們會瘋狂地使用銷售通話和演示錄音來規劃序列和層級，基本上是任何漏鬥

does anybody work on funnels in here some it's super dark out there and I can't see anything I'm gonna go with everybody put up their hands okay cool so everybody works on funnels that's

有人在這裡做漏鬥嗎？外面太黑了我什麼都看不到，我就當大家都舉手了。好的，所以大家都做漏鬥，很好

great but when it comes to actually working on a funnel or working on writing emails that say so if you write ads that drive to landing pages or to lead gen pages

但當真正要做漏鬥或寫那些說明的電子郵件時，如果你寫廣告導向落地頁或潛在客戶頁面

and people then become email leads you have to write emails to nurture them right so how do you do that how do you come up with that how do you actually

然後人們變成電子郵件潛在客戶，你必須寫電子郵件來培養他們，對吧？那你要怎麼做？你要怎麼想出來？你實際上要怎麼

plot a funnel you can say guys I want a funnel for this ad that we're doing um how do you actually put one together how do you know what goes in everything

規劃一個漏鬥？你可以說「我想要一個漏鬥來配合這個廣告」，但你實際上要怎麼組合？你怎麼知道每個裡面放什麼？

there's a lot inside there what message should come first what's the first thing we should say to somebody and then second and then keep going after that

裡面有很多東西。什麼訊息應該先來？我們應該對某人說的第一件事是什麼？然後是第二個？然後繼續？

and what's like the actual order of them like everything inside of it so we have to plot the emails and then we have to write them with stuff in all of them and

實際的順序是什麼？裡面所有的東西。所以我們必須規劃電子郵件，然後用東西寫它們，然後

you can imagine that a lot of people don't end up putting that many funnels together because you're like oh no I don't know what goes in anything so I'm

你可以想像很多人最後不會組合那麼多漏鬥，因為你會想「噢不，我不知道裡面放什麼」，所以我就

kind of good we'll see if we can find somebody to hire to do that and they don't want to do it either so it's a really straightforward thing if you're

算了，看看我們能不能找人來做這個，他們也不想做。所以這是一件非常直接的事情，如果你

willing to like block off some time to listen to some sales calls which we do and what you should do so chorus AI is a platform for recording

願意安排一些時間來聽一些銷售通話，我們就是這麼做的，你也應該這麼做。Chorus.ai 是一個錄製

sales calls there are other ones out there but this is just the one that most of our clients use and in this case it's what get Prime uses I'm gonna give the

銷售通話的平臺，還有其他的，但這是我們大多數客戶使用的，在這個案例中是 GitPrime 使用的。我會繼續用

get Prime continue on with get prime as our primary example here okay so you want to go in and just purely watch old demos that's it that's where your copy is

GitPrime 作為我們這裡的主要例子。好的，你要進去純粹觀看舊的演示，就這樣，這就是你的文案會來自的地方

gonna come from you're watching the demos watching these videos watch their expressions as they see the demo happening so the person who's being demoed - it's gonna be quiet a lot of

你在看這些演示，看這些影片，看他們在看演示時的表情。被演示的人在早期通話中會很安靜

the time in earlier calls and you're gonna have to just like pay attention to whether they look really bored or not you want to skip to the parts where the

大部分時候，你要注意他們看起來是不是很無聊。你要跳到潛在客戶說話的部分

prospect is talking so you can't really see it there but I'll let you know that there's a teal bar followed by like a little purple bar the teal represents

你在那裡可能看不太清楚，但我告訴你有一個青色的條，後面是一個小紫色的條。青色代表

the agent talking and the purple one is where the person being download - is talking so you can like skip right to the purple stuff see if it's like an

代理在說話，紫色是被演示的人在說話。所以你可以直接跳到紫色的部分，看看是不是一個

interesting question and then back up a bit but you don't - spend all your time like just watching everything and of course watch it on 1.5 because makes no

有趣的問題，然後倒回去一點，但你不需要花所有時間看所有東西。當然用 1.5 倍速看，因為沒必要

make notes to yourself throughout as you're watching these sales demo so I have like a little notepad open on my computer and I'll take notes throughout putting things in quotation marks and if

在看這些銷售演示時給自己做筆記。我會開一個小記事本在電腦上，全程做筆記，把東西放在引號裡，如果

it's a note to yourself if it's something you want to remember I find it really useful as like a tip to put your notes to yourself inside all caps that

是給自己的筆記，如果是你想記住的東西，我發現一個有用的技巧是把給自己的筆記用全大寫

you'll know it's you editorializing or thinking about something and then put interesting language in quotation marks because that's the kind of stuff that you're going to actually use to write

這樣你就知道這是你在評論或思考什麼東西，然後把有趣的語言放在引號裡，因為那是你實際上要用來寫的東西

the copy later okay we want to also watch for documentary-style moments is anybody familiar with jobs to be done little I heard a whisper yes okay it was

之後寫文案。好的，我們還要注意紀錄片式的時刻，有人熟悉 Jobs to be Done 嗎？我聽到有人小聲說是

everybody knows in this case it was just one person okay so anyway I won't get into the details there but when you're interviewing people when you're listening to people you want to kind of

好的，在這個案例中只有一個人。好的，反正我不會講細節，但當你在採訪人、傾聽人的時候，你想要有點

get them to speak to things that are like bringing their life to life for you a lot people talk at the surface level and you have to get people to dig in and

讓他們說一些讓你能看到他們生活的東西。很多人只在表面說話，你必須讓人們深入挖掘

zoom in on what their lives are actually like so you can really write copy that's not summarize but it's actually like deep into how they're thinking so you want to watch for any documentary-style

放大他們的生活實際上是什麼樣子的，這樣你才能寫出不是總結的文案，而是真正深入他們思考方式的文案。所以你要注意任何紀錄片式的

moment which is a moment in a sales call when you can visualize the person's life when something real happens or they're not just say like oh yeah that sounds

時刻，就是銷售通話中你可以視覺化這個人的生活的時刻，當真實的事情發生或他們不只是說「噢是的那聽起來」

good but like oh I could see that's working like this and getting into those details so here are some notes you're gonna take a lot of notes when

「不錯」，而是「噢我可以看到這樣會運作」並進入那些細節。這裡有一些筆記，你做這些的時候會做很多筆記

you do these and it's all great because it's all useful um one thing that came up what that was a documentary-style moment this person said oh I didn't realize Martin was spending three

這都很好，因為都有用。有一個出現的事情是一個紀錄片式的時刻，這個人說「噢我不知道 Martin 花了四分之三」

quarters of his time continually reworking every line of code every time this particular requirement changes so this is something where I can now start to see this person's life Martin

「的時間不斷重寫每一行程式碼，每次這個特定需求改變的時候」。這是一個我現在可以開始看到這個人生活的地方。Martin

whoever Martin is was spending three-quarters of his time continually reworking every line of code every time this particular requirement changes this is interesting because we can kind of

不管 Martin 是誰，花了四分之三的時間不斷重寫每一行程式碼，每次這個特定需求改變的時候。這很有趣，因為我們可以有點

get an insight into their life and possibly lives of people like them so when we're going to write about a pain point that we want to like zoom in on we

洞察他們的生活，可能是像他們這樣的人的生活。所以當我們要寫一個我們想要放大的痛點時

can use like this exact language and you can even use the name Martin if you want to in your copy because it makes it again more real but really just zooming

我們可以使用這個確切的語言，你甚至可以在文案中使用 Martin 這個名字，因為它讓它更真實，但真的只是放大

in and taking this we don't know what we're gonna quite do with it yet but when it comes time to discuss pain points in our copy here you go you can

並取用這個，我們還不知道要怎麼用它，但當要在我們的文案中討論痛點時，這裡有了，你可以

lift this and drop it into an email watch for phrases like I'm worried about and can you show me that's something that's gonna be really useful for you when you were actually plotting anything

直接把這個放到電子郵件裡。注意像「我擔心」和「你能給我展示一下」這樣的短語，當你在規劃任何事情時這會非常有用

to do with their concerns their objections and things like that so in this case I'm gonna zoom in on a couple of these don't worry you I won't

關於他們的擔憂、異議等等。在這個案例中我要放大其中幾個，別擔心我不會

read all of them they're quite long but this one gentleman said I'm worried about the overhead the overhead and the upkeep where does the data come from that get Prime reports on how much

全部讀完，它們很長，但這個紳士說「我擔心開銷，開銷和維護。GitPrime 報告的數據從哪裡來？我的人需要花多少」

attention of my guys have to focus on this are the inputs intuitive do they make sense they're gonna be real dry and we kept going on this is the kind of

「注意力在這上面？輸入是不是直覺的？它們有意義嗎？它們會不會很乏味？」他繼續說，這是那種

stuff that once you know that people who are in a good position to buy from you who are actually like qualified prospects they actually care at this point he's having real thoughts real

一旦你知道那些處於好位置準備購買的人，那些真正合格的潛在客戶，他們實際上在這一點上關心的東西。他有真實的想法，真實的

interesting thoughts about possibly taking your solution and bringing it in-house this is the kind of stuff that then I can plot out emails based on okay what's his first concern overhead great

有趣的想法，關於可能採用你的解決方案並帶到公司內部。這是那種我可以根據這個規劃電子郵件的東西。好的，他的第一個擔憂是開銷，很好

email one is overhead second concern up queue great email two might be upkeep where does the data come from that get print reports on that might be email

電子郵件一是關於開銷。第二個擔憂是維護，很好，電子郵件二可能是關於維護。GitPrime 報告的數據從哪裡來？那可能是電子郵件

three so we start to watch for patterns it doesn't mean we take one data this one person and plot our whole sequence on this but when you can start to watch

三。所以我們開始注意模式。這不代表我們從這一個人取數據然後規劃我們整個序列，但當你開始注意

for these patterns and you can write out like one three four five six with their topics then you can see for the next sales call well we're there one two three four five

這些模式，你可以寫出 1、3、4、5、6 和它們的主題，然後你可以看下一個銷售通話，有沒有 1、2、3、4、5

six and as people start saying the same things you can start seeing like Oh early on a lot of people are worried about where does the data come from that

6，當人們開始說同樣的事情，你可以開始看到「噢早期很多人擔心數據從哪裡來」

get Prime reports on and that could be one of your very first emails and now you're just not writing some random email because you were told you have to but you're writing something that's

那可能是你最早的電子郵件之一，現在你不是因為被告知必須寫就寫一些隨機的電子郵件，而是寫一些真正會」

actually going to tap in so that person who reads it feels like you're inside their head another one is if it's too abstract too cumbersome too difficult and intricate for the guys to get

觸及的東西，讓讀它的人覺得你在他們的腦子裡。另一個是「如果它太抽象、太繁瑣、太難、太複雜讓團隊」

trained up on if it ends up being a data burden and this person goes on about things that would keep them from buying so they're at the far end of the

「學習，如果它最後變成數據負擔」，這個人繼續說會阻止他們購買的事情。所以他們在」

spectrum when it comes to saying yes to you and all we have to do is understand that okay when a person is close to buying they start having these concerns

對你說是的光譜的遠端，我們要做的就是理解，好的，當一個人接近購買時，他們開始有這些擔憂」

so when we're down funnel we're putting our funnels together some of the concerns that come up are likely to be these and we do not have to bring those

所以當我們在漏鬥下端組合我們的漏鬥時，出現的一些擔憂可能是這些，我們不需要把那些」

concerns up earlier which could be problematic earlier and final but we should bring them up later in funnel we can start plotting out funnels just by listening to people lots of notes will

擔憂提早帶出來，那可能會有問題，但我們應該在漏鬥後期帶出來。我們可以只通過傾聽人們開始規劃漏鬥。很多筆記會」

come up you don't this is to illustrate that there will be a lot of notes you know to look at them but importantly if you do this work and you should do this

出現，你不用——這是為了說明會有很多筆記。你知道要看它們，但重要的是如果你做這個工作，你應該做這個」

work you want to make sure that you are tagging everything that she finds put individual notes together if you use Evernote or your story research or whatever it is that you might use if

工作，你要確保你在標記你找到的所有東西。如果你用 Evernote 或你用什麼來存研究的，把個別筆記放在一起」

something is an objection Tatom take it as an objection if it's for somebody who's like a late awareness or late stage sort of person that's a prospect

如果什麼是異議，就標記它為異議。如果它是針對那種後期意識或後期階段的人，那是一個潛在客戶」

for you if it's talking about a moment of highest tension a moment of highest pleasure desirable outcome whatever those things are the more you do this the more you'll be able to tag this

對你來說。如果它在談論最高緊張的時刻、最高愉悅的時刻、渴望的結果，不管那些東西是什麼，你做得越多，你就越能自信地標記這些」

confidently and then go back and use that because you could have all sorts of notes but if you don't know how to use them you're not going to use them and

然後回去使用，因為你可以有各種筆記，但如果你不知道怎麼用它們，你就不會用它們」

you'll sit around on a boardroom table again and go like what do we say and we want to avoid that okay so we listened to tons of sales calls we took thousands

你會又坐在會議桌旁說「我們要說什麼」，我們想避免那樣。好的，我們聽了大量的銷售通話，做了數千」

of words notes we overlaid the flow of each conversation to find patterns as I mentioned and then we use that to shape this funnel which is a pretty straightforward funnel it's actually

字的筆記，我們疊加了每個對話的流程來找模式，就像我提到的，然後我們用那個來塑造這個漏鬥，這是一個相當直接的漏鬥，實際上」

refunds made in one we can see that there are emails landing pages and then direct one-to-one emails as well and they're all plotted based on what we learned primarily what we learned in

在一個裡面做了退款。我們可以看到有電子郵件、落地頁，還有一對一的直接電子郵件，它們都是根據我們學到的東西規劃的，主要是我們在」

sales calls and then we had that validated in other ways we learned about confusion we learned about pain we took those and we put them into the actual breakdown of these eight emails those

銷售通話中學到的，然後我們用其他方式驗證了。我們了解了困惑，了解了痛點，我們把那些放到這八封電子郵件的實際分解中。那些」

are the like round little circles little great ones you can see there began with a desirable outcome so what is what do people most want out of get prem

是那些圓形的小灰圈，你可以看到那裡，從一個渴望的結果開始。人們最想從 GitPrime 得到什麼？」

followed that with confusion yeah but the pain point then the point of confusion this all came not from us sitting there and guessing but from listening and watching those patterns

接著是困惑，然後是痛點，然後是困惑點。這都不是我們坐在那裡猜測來的，而是傾聽並觀察那些模式」

that kept coming up in the way people would ask questions at each point as they went through okay so you have all of that that you can take and use to

人們在每個點問問題的方式中不斷出現的模式。好的，你有所有這些可以拿來用」

plot out a sequence now how do you actually write the sequence how do you get into it it's gonna come down to desirable outcomes sharp pains and points of confusion if your earlier

規劃一個序列，現在你實際上怎麼寫這個序列？你怎麼進入它？這會歸結到渴望的結果、尖銳的痛點和困惑點。如果你是早期」

stage we often jump to features and benefits and when you're reviewing copy you might also be like where are all the features and benefits and you want to make sure that you're putting features

階段，我們經常跳到功能和好處，當你在審核文案時你可能也會問功能和好處在哪裡，你要確保你把功能」

and benefits down later in an email like for emails that are product aware people um this is going to when you're talking to people who are newer to your world

和好處放在電子郵件後面，比如給產品意識階段的人的電子郵件。當你在跟剛接觸你的世界的人說話」

who aren't quite sure about who you are and if you're right for them then you want to talk more about things that are not features and benefits but what's

他們還不確定你是誰、你是不是適合他們，那你要談更多不是功能和好處的東西，而是」

really going on in their lives okay so how do we do that how do we write those emails then so one of the things that we

他們生活中真正發生的事情。好的，我們怎麼做到這一點？我們怎麼寫那些電子郵件？一個我們」

heard is when we're in stand ups and an engineer has been stuck for weeks but thought he could figure it out on his own and now we're late so he finally brings them okay

聽到的事情是「當我們在站立會議中，一個工程師被卡住了好幾週，但以為他可以自己搞定，現在我們遲了，所以他終於帶出來」好的」

that was voice of customer data one person was talking about a problem that they had we opened we said okay great problem perfect I understand that's your

那是客戶之聲數據，一個人在談論他們有的問題。我們打開說好的，很好的問題，完美，我理解那是你的」

problem we listened we heard a lot of agitation points for that problem and then of course how to solve if that's a framework problem agitation solution is a copywriting framework so he took that

問題，我們傾聽，我們聽到了很多對那個問題的激動點，然後當然是如何解決。這是一個框架——問題、激動、解決方案是一個文案寫作框架。我們取用那個」

voice of customer we pushed it into problem agitation solution and that helped us write this email and I'll show you exactly how that breaks down like how did the copy in this email actually

客戶之聲，推進到問題激動解決方案，這幫助我們寫了這封電子郵件，我會展示那具體是怎麼分解的——這封電子郵件的文案實際上是怎麼」

get there so it's one thing to plot all of the emails but now how do we write those emails so again this just taking vo see so one of the person

到達那裡的。所以規劃所有電子郵件是一回事，但現在我們怎麼寫那些電子郵件？所以再次，這只是取用 VOC，一個」

one of the people said when someone commits a thousand lines right before the weekend in the context of no one will prioritize reviewing it and it dies

人說「當有人在週末前提交一千行，在沒有人會優先審核它的情況下，它就死在藤上」」

on the vine that turned into someone on your team commits three hundred-plus lines of code at once and this dying on the vine so it's starting to make its

那變成了「你團隊裡有人一次提交三百多行程式碼」，還有這個死在藤上。所以它開始直接」

way directly on the page it's hard to know who the bottleneck is that came up a lot and what's going on under the hood we heard that exact phrasing a lot so

出現在頁面上。「很難知道瓶頸是誰」這個出現了很多，「引擎蓋下發生了什麼」我們聽到了很多這個確切的措辭」

this and this is just a snapshot of all the different things that went into writing this email and this email converts very well we've already seen earlier conversion rates but this is how

這個，這只是所有進入寫這封電子郵件的不同東西的一個快照。這封電子郵件轉換得非常好，我們早些時候已經看到了轉換率，但這是」

we get there just by not interrupting not interfering with what people are trying to say to us about what they're really going through and just putting exactly what they say on the page don't

我們如何到達那裡的——不打斷、不乾涉人們試圖告訴我們的關於他們真正經歷的事情，只是把他們說的話確切地放在頁面上。不要」

editorialize don't summarize it just take it and put it on the page okay that brings us to the last way that I want to talk about today for actually finding

評論、不要總結，只是取用它放在頁面上。好的，這帶我們到我今天想談的最後一種方式，實際上找」

voice of customer data and using it and that's Thank You page surveys so thank you page surveys are my fave we heard yesterday about how password confirmation pages were in the top ten

客戶之聲數據並使用它，那就是感謝頁問捲。感謝頁問捲是我的最愛。我們昨天聽到密碼確認頁面在前十名」

for somebody um I forget the details on it but it was like yes yes because confirmation pages are a really under optimized space in most of our

對某個人來說，我忘了細節，但就像是的是的，因為確認頁面在我們大多數人的」

experiences so you can use a Thank You page or confirmation page is a great time to ask a question of somebody you can put a survey on your Thank You page

體驗中是一個非常未優化的空間。你可以用感謝頁或確認頁，這是問某人問題的好時機。你可以在感謝頁上放一個問捲」

you can put an ad on a Thank You page as well but you can also put a survey on there and the reason that a survey on a

你也可以在感謝頁上放一個廣告，但你也可以在那裡放一個問捲。在」

thank-you page is so good is because it's a seducible moment this is the moment someone has just signed up and said yes to you they've said yes to

感謝頁上放問捲很好的原因是因為這是一個可誘惑的時刻。這是某人剛剛註冊並對你說是的時刻，他們對」

buying from you or to signing up for whatever thing you have or to downloading your app and now they're left on like this Thank You page it's

從你這裡購買或註冊你有的任何東西或下載你的應用程式說了是，現在他們被留在這個感謝頁上，就像」

like great go check your email and then use whatever we have there so it's effectively a dead end page but you can do something with it and with that

「很好，去檢查你的電子郵件然後用我們那裡有的任何東西」。所以它實際上是一個死鬍同頁面，但你可以用它做些事情，而且有那個」

really good moment of having just had someone say yes to you and they're on a bit of a high okay so we want to put a Thank You page survey there so we do

真的很好的時刻，剛剛有人對你說是，他們有點興奮。好的，我們想在那裡放一個感謝頁問捲。我們」

this we do this for all for all of our clients but we did also do it for ourselves with our own training so immediately after a customer purchased copy school 2018 they

為我們所有的客戶做這個，但我們也為自己做了，用我們自己的培訓。在客戶購買 Copy School 2018 後立即」

were brought to this page where we asked them this one question we asked what was going on in your life that brought you to join copy school today okay it's an open-ended question

他們被帶到這個頁面，我們問他們這一個問題：「你生活中發生了什麼事讓你今天加入 Copy School？」好的，這是一個開放式問題」

because we want to hear what people have to say it's not a pole it's not trying to get it down so that we can try to figure out what everybody thinks but

因為我們想聽人們要說什麼。這不是一個投票，不是要把它縮減到我們可以試圖弄清楚每個人在想什麼」

really listening to what people are gonna tell us okay why did you buy from us what was going on in your life and I've been using that exact phrasing for

而是真正傾聽人們要告訴我們什麼。好的，你為什麼從我們這裡購買？你生活中發生了什麼？我已經用這個確切的措辭」

well over a decade back when I was at conversion rate experts on my own with all of my clients as well what was going on in your life that brought you to X

超過十年了，當我在 Conversion Rate Experts 時，我自己做的，跟我所有的客戶也是。「你生活中發生了什麼事讓你今天來到 X？」」

today we have copywriters who are our customers so some of them would answer like a copywriter having a bad day might so this person said groping in the dark

我們有文案寫手是我們的客戶，所以他們有些會像一個過得不好的文案寫手那樣回答。這個人說「在」

of uneducated purgatory destined to be chained to low wages and toxic work environments yet unwilling to surrender to the perils of the loser top okay so not everybody is gonna answer that way

「未受教育的煉獄黑暗中摸索，注定被低薪和有毒的工作環境鎖住，但又不願屈服於失敗者頂端的危險」好的，不是每個人都會這樣回答」

and although it does make for a little bit of an interesting moment when you're going through all of these responses um you're gonna find also some really

雖然當你在看所有這些回應時這確實會造成一個有趣的時刻，你也會找到一些真正」

useful ones too so this one is I want to become a copywriter but one of the right skills to start off my own business without feeling insecure in my abilities

有用的。這個是「我想成為一個文案寫手，但有正確的技能來開始我自己的事業，而不覺得對自己的能力沒有安全感」」

okay without feeling insecure that's interesting then someone else talked about confidence and suddenly everybody was talking about confidence and others looked through this too and they also mentioned this it wasn't just like

好的，不覺得沒有安全感，這很有趣。然後另一個人談到信心，突然每個人都在談論信心，其他人也看了這個，他們也提到了這個，不只是」

confirmation bias but others on my team were going through and it was like damn did we even know we were selling confidence we had no idea we were

確認偏差，我團隊的其他人也在看，就像「天哪，我們甚至知道我們在賣信心嗎？」我們根本不知道我們在」

selling confidence so what did we do we took that and we rewrote one of our final sales messages we added that to our final day sales email in this whole

賣信心。所以我們做了什麼？我們取用那個，重寫了我們最後的銷售訊息之一，我們把那個加到我們在這整個」

section right here it's a longer email it's okay people read online um and throughout this whole section we just kept hammering home the message you'll be confident you'll be confident confidence confidence ultra-confident

部分的最後一天銷售電子郵件中。這是一封比較長的電子郵件，沒關係，人們在網上會讀。在整個這個部分中我們一直強調這個訊息：你會有信心，你會有信心，信心，信心，超級有信心」

copywriter swagger we just kept pushing on that and that was just because we heard from people that they we're trying to get more confident in something and if we haven't asked that

「文案寫手的氣場」，我們一直推這個，這只是因為我們從人們那裡聽到他們在試圖對某些事情更有信心，如果我們沒有在」

question on the thank you page we would not have known this and there's so much more that you will get from this so big takeaway here I hope for you is that

感謝頁上問那個問題，我們就不會知道這個，你會從這裡得到更多東西。所以這裡的重要收穫我希望對你來說是」

test worthy copy is not sitting inside your head it's not sitting inside my head it's not sitting inside the head of any copywriter you might hire and if

值得測試的文案不在你的腦子裡，不在我的腦子裡，不在任何你可能僱用的文案寫手的腦子裡，如果」

they think that it is don't hire them it's in the hearts and in the minds of our customers and prospects and your job my job our job is to lure it out to

他們認為是的，不要僱用他們。它在我們客戶和潛在客戶的心裡和腦子裡，你的工作、我的工作、我們的工作是把它引出來」

listen and to repeat it back in persuasive ways and otherwise just stay out of the way so you want to take sticky language themes messages from the voice of the customer push it through

傾聽，然後用有說服力的方式重複回去，其他時候就不要礙事。你要取用客戶之聲的黏著語言、主題、訊息，把它推進」

any copywriting frameworks and formulas and better practices that you or your team might know and then validate that internally and go out and test it we're a big validation point something

任何你或你的團隊可能知道的文案寫作框架和公式和更好的實踐，然後在內部驗證那個，出去測試它。一個大的驗證點是」

to really think about as you do this is might this lead to a giant breakthrough might it be a total bust and you don't know which one it is that's a good one

真正要想的是：這可能導致一個巨大的突破嗎？它可能是一個徹底的失敗嗎？你不知道是哪一個，那是一個好的」

to test that is all thanks guys we'd like to do just a couple questions it's short the folks have them I'll let me go grab the or you can come up to the

要測試的。就這樣，謝謝大家！我們想做幾個問題，很短。有問題的人，我去拿麥克風，或者你可以上來到」

mics thank you for the talk it was very insightful and practical this may be out of school but those frameworks how many are those and is is there a high level

麥克風這裡。謝謝你的演講，非常有見地和實用。這可能有點離題，但那些框架，有多少個？有沒有一個高層次的」

message of the purpose of what happens throwing the when you run through the frameworks um yeah so there are a lot of frameworks or just like for testing and prioritization we saw three maybe

訊息是關於當你通過那些框架時會發生什麼的目的？嗯是的，有很多框架或只是用於測試和優先排序的，我們昨天可能看到了三個」

yesterday um with ice being one of the really popular ones so copywriting frameworks galore we have a lot on copy hackers comm about exactly that like a

ICE 是其中一個非常流行的。文案寫作框架有很多，我們在 Copy Hackers 上有很多關於這個的，像一個」

giant list of all of them but you really only need to know a couple so I rely heavily on problem agitations solution that's like one of the frameworks that

所有框架的大列表，但你真的只需要知道幾個。我非常依賴問題激動解決方案，那是一個我們」

we use really heavily and a lot of people don't dare to let people don't want to start with the problem because they think it's like fear-mongering or

非常依賴的框架，很多人不敢讓人們以問題開始，因為他們認為這是散布恐懼或」

it's negative but it all depends on how you do it so problem agitation solution is a really good framework attention interest desire action is another really good framework and what was the second

是負面的，但這都取決於你怎麼做。問題激動解決方案是一個非常好的框架，注意力興趣慾望行動是另一個非常好的框架。你問題的第二部分是什麼？」

part of your question around how what happens with it yeah and you know what's the high level purpose of running to those frameworks yeah and that's just to

關於它會發生什麼，你知道通過那些框架的高層次目的是什麼？是的，那只是」

shape the copy so if you took voice of customer and you just threw it on the page like it's not it's not ready for public consumption yet so you want to

塑造文案。如果你取用客戶之聲然後只是把它扔到頁面上，它還沒有準備好給公眾消費。你想要」

make sure that you're applying things like okay how can we organize this page persuasively so thinking about how people make decisions how can we organize the vo see on the page in such

確保你在應用像「好的，我們怎麼有說服力地組織這個頁面」這樣的東西，想想人們如何做決定。我們怎麼在頁面上組織 VOC 以這樣」

a way that'll actually work so the goal of EOC is to make sure that the customer sees themselves in your copy their immediate selves their current selves in

一種方式讓它真正有效？VOC 的目標是確保客戶在你的文案中看到自己，他們即將到來的自我、他們現在的自我」

their immediate next self but once the VOCs in place like how do you push it further so that it actually works and that's the headline formula it's best

他們即將到來的下一個自我，但一旦 VOC 到位了，你怎麼再推進它讓它真正有效？那就是標題公式，最佳」

practices like can we make it clearer like if you think you need rehab you do we had a couple words cut off the front because it was like unnecessary so it's

實踐，比如我們能讓它更清楚嗎？「如果你認為你需要戒毒，你就是需要」，我們從前面切掉了幾個詞，因為是不必要的。這」

just a really quick obvious better practice and copywriting is like make it clear so that's really it it's just to give you something to push the BOC data into

只是一個非常快速明顯的更好實踐，文案寫作就像是讓它清楚。所以就是這樣，只是給你一些東西來把 VOC 數據推進去」

does that help okay cool thanks for the question to my right okay I'm like I don't see you at all over here okay it's darker than you think um for

這有幫助嗎？好的，謝謝你的問題。在我右邊，我完全看不到你在那裡。好的，比你想的更暗。對於」

well that turned into for copy school that was the one for copy school with confidence and it was it's a launch so you've got like a five I think it was a

好的，那變成了 Copy School，那是 Copy School 那個關於信心的，它是一個發布，所以你有像五天，我想是」

six day window and it turned into a seven figure launch and it might have gone that way without the confidence messaging it was a last day message you

六天的窗口，它變成了一個七位數的發布。它可能在沒有信心訊息的情況下也會那樣，那是最後一天的訊息，你」

don't know if that's actually going to impact it so it's less about that like we didn't test that and a lot of this stuff won't get tested because a lot of

不知道那是不是真的會影響它。所以它不太是關於那個，我們沒有測試那個，很多這些東西不會被測試，因為很多」

copycat be tested we want to test everything but that's a myth you can't test everything and in that case we could have a be tested the emails for

文案應該被測試，我們想測試所有東西，但那是一個迷思，你不能測試所有東西。在那個案例中我們可以 A/B 測試電子郵件」

sure but we didn't because we were in launch and you're just like just go and give everything to everybody and you can't afford a delay but yeah it ended

當然，但我們沒有，因為我們在發布中，你就是「去吧，給每個人所有東西」，你不能負擔得起延遲。但是的，它最後」

up being a seven figure launch and it was the first seven figure that we've done so I don't think it hurt matters I literally don't know where I'm looking

是一個七位數的發布，是我們做過的第一個七位數。所以我不認為它傷害了事情。我真的不知道我在看哪裡」

right now so there's someone out there sorry I couldn't make any eye contact with you throughout that whole thing yeah yeah yeah yes the question is like how do you mentor a junior copywriter

現在，所以有人在那裡，抱歉我整個過程中都沒能跟你有眼神接觸。是的是的是的，問題是你怎麼指導一個初級文案寫手」

with like a creative background to write coffee and it's it's admittedly very hard I was an English major with the creative writing background or mccrane inviting minor so I was doomed for no

有創意背景的來寫文案，這確實非常難。我是一個英語專業，有創意寫作背景，或者 McCreary 邀請輔修，所以我注定沒有」

job whatsoever anyway so I kind of had some motivation like pay off them student loans but for everybody else who just wants to be creative it comes down

任何工作。反正我有一些動機，比如還清學貸，但對於其他只想有創意的人，這歸結到」

to I think identifying that and I really wish that the word writing wasn't included in copywriting you're not here to put on a show you're not here to be

我認為識別那個，我真的希望「寫作」這個詞不包含在文案寫作中。你不是來表演的，你不是來」

clever no one's interested in what you have to say that's like hard but it's like it's true right if they think it's about themselves and I had to have that

耍聰明的，沒有人對你要說的話感興趣，這很難但這是真的，對吧？如果他們認為這是關於他們自己的，我必須讓」

broken of me too and I better person for it but I do think like you can just help them understand that their job is just a small fraction of copywriting is

我自己也打破這個，我因此成為一個更好的人，但我確實認為你可以幫助他們理解他們的工作只是文案寫作的一小部分」

actually writing so go study those frameworks and formulas and better practices and that's where your art is and everything else is the science of it like listening staying out of the way

是實際的寫作。去學習那些框架和公式和更好的實踐，那是你的藝術所在，其他一切是科學部分，比如傾聽、不礙事」

validating again that's you getting out of the way cuz you might find out that that copy you thought was super dope actually sucks and tanks so yeah those

驗證，那又是你讓開，因為你可能會發現那個你認為超酷的文案實際上很爛而且失敗了。所以那些」

are the two science parts of it and then they have a little room for artistry in there and that's all they get and then they can take their weekends to write

是兩個科學部分，然後他們有一點空間在那裡發揮藝術，那是他們得到的全部，然後他們可以用週末來寫」

the novels that they want to write but that's not their job I know it's tough love but it turns them into better copywriters some will be like no I don't

他們想寫的小說，但那不是他們的工作。我知道這是嚴厲的愛，但這會讓他們成為更好的文案寫手，有些人會說不我不」

want to do it and then you'll lose them but that's okay because they're probably not built to be a copywriter I sound super mean Marie the copywriters okay thank you

想這樣做，然後你會失去他們，但沒關係，因為他們可能不適合當文案寫手。我聽起來很刻薄，對文案寫手很抱歉。好的，謝謝」

cool thank you guys so much your honor

太棒了，非常感謝大家！