Just doing the hard work doesn't get you promoted. Being seen does. And if you're thinking this year, "Oh my god, I did everything I could, but it still didn't

只是努力工作不會讓你獲得晉升。被看見才會。如果你今年在想，「天哪，我做了我能做的一切，但還是沒有

translate." Then this episode is for you. One of our biggest takeaways this year is that talent doesn't necessarily equal success. It's whether that talent turns into credibility, influence, and

轉化成結果。」那麼這一集就是為你準備的。今年我們最大的收穫之一是，才華不一定等於成功。而是那個才華是否轉化為可信度、影響力，以及

revenue, especially heading into a new year. Today we're doing our career reset episode and it's all built on this one fundamental idea, the invisible game of power at work. First, you're going to

收入，特別是在進入新的一年的時候。今天我們要做我們的職業重啟集，它全部建立在這一個基本想法上，工作中權力的隱形遊戲。首先，你將

learn how to control the signal that you're sending. Then we're going to convert that into influence that people actually act on. Okay? So, part one is how your leaders or your team perceive you

學習如何控制你發出的信號。然後我們要把它轉化為人們實際上會採取行動的影響力。好嗎？所以，第一部分是你的領導或你的團隊如何看待你

>> and part two is how you leverage that to get it done. Got it? Let's get into it.

第二部分是你如何利用那個來完成事情。明白了嗎？讓我們開始吧。

>> >> Welcome back to Tiger Sisters. I'm Sheree. And I'm Jean. Today is a start the year strong episode, and we're packaging it differently on purpose.

歡迎回到 Tiger Sisters。我是 Sheree。我是 Jean。今天是一個強勢開始新年的集數，我們故意用不同的方式包裝它。

January is when teams reset expectations, scope gets assigned, and promotions are decided way earlier than you think. A lot of us had the same experience this year. You were reliable,

一月是團隊重設期望、範圍被分配，以及晉升決定的時間，比你想的要早得多。我們很多人今年有同樣的經歷。你是可靠的，

you delivered, you did the work, but somehow the output didn't match the recognition. That gap is what we're calling the invisible game. It's basically how competence becomes credibility, credibility becomes

你交付了，你完成了工作，但不知怎的產出與認可不匹配。那個差距就是我們所說的隱形遊戲。它基本上是能力如何變成可信度，可信度如何變成

influence, and then influence becomes success and compensation. So, we're bringing you two of our most useful conversations with tons of examples to create one playbook. First, you're going

影響力，然後影響力變成成功和報酬。所以，我們帶給你兩場我們最有用的對話，有很多例子來創建一個手冊。首先，你將

to hear from Lorraine K. Lee. She is an executive presence and workplace visibility expert, and she's also a best-selling author and keynote speaker.

聽到 Lorraine K. Lee 的分享。她是一位行政存在感和職場能見度專家，她也是一位暢銷書作家和主題演講人。

and she's gonna break down for us how leaders are perceived in meetings, on Zoom, and in high stakes rooms. And then next, you'll hear from Leah Wire. She's the president of Entertainment, Beauty,

她將為我們分解領導者在會議中、在 Zoom 上和在高風險的房間中是如何被感知的。然後接下來，你將聽到 Leah Wire 的分享。她是 People, Inc. 的娛樂、美容、

and Style at People, Inc., which is the largest digital print publisher in America, which includes People magazine, Entertainment Weekly, Brides in Style, and many more. She gives us the influence layer. How to navigate

和風格總裁，這是美國最大的數位印刷出版商，包括《People》雜誌、《Entertainment Weekly》、《Brides in Style》等等。她給我們影響力層面。如何駕馭

politics, build real allies at work, and how to make your work land without feeling performative. Think of this as perception plus influence equals power.

政治、在工作中建立真正的盟友，以及如何讓你的工作有效果而不感覺是表演。把這想成感知加上影響力等於權力。

Okay, let's get started with part one with Lorraine. Today we're talking to Lorraine K. Lee, LinkedIn top voice and author of Unforgettable Presence. We're breaking down the unspoken rules of the

好的，讓我們從 Lorraine 的第一部分開始。今天我們和 Lorraine K. Lee 交談，LinkedIn 頂級聲音和《難忘的存在感》作者。我們正在分解職場中的

workplace on how to get seen, heard, and promoted. Welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast, Lorraine.

不成文規則，關於如何被看見、被聽到和獲得晉升。歡迎來到 Tiger Sisters 播客，Lorraine。

>> Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. We're so excited that you're here. You made it happen. Yay. Could you please introduce yourself to the audience in

非常感謝你們邀請我。我真的很興奮能在這裡。我們很高興你在這裡。你做到了。耶。你能用你自己的話向觀眾介紹一下你自己嗎？

your own words? >> Of course. Well, I'm Lorraine. I spent the first decade of my career leading editorial teams at various tech companies, most notably at LinkedIn,

當然。嗯，我是 Lorraine。我職業生涯的第一個十年都在領導各種科技公司的編輯團隊，最著名的是在 LinkedIn，

where I met you, Sheree. And now I am a keynote speaker, a course creator, an author as you mentioned, and also a content creator.

在那裡我認識了你，Sheree。現在我是一名主題演講人、課程創作者、你提到的作者，也是一名內容創作者。

>> Yay. So excited to dive right in.

耶。很興奮直接進入主題。

>> Yeah, same here. >> Okay, Lorine, >> in your book, you say that first impressions form in as little as one10enth of a second.

是的，我也是。好的，Lorraine，在你的書中，你說第一印象在短短十分之一秒內就形成了。

>> So what are people getting wrong in that onetenth of a second?

那麼人們在那十分之一秒內做錯了什麼？

>> A lot of people are not thinking about the nonverbal. I think when we are about to meet someone, we think about our introduction. We know what we want to

很多人沒有在想非語言的部分。我認為當我們要遇見某人時，我們會想我們的介紹。我們知道我們想

say, but we're not thinking about what our body is saying. So, for example, there's the obvious things like you need to have good posture. You want to make

說什麼，但我們沒有在想我們的身體在說什麼。所以，例如，有一些明顯的事情比如你需要有良好的姿勢。你想要

eye contact, not have the dead fish handshake, right? So, have a solid handshake. And then there's other things as well that we don't think about. So, let's say I am doing a job interview,

眼神接觸，不要有死魚握手，對吧？所以，有一個堅定的握手。然後還有其他我們沒想到的事情。所以，假設我在做一個工作面試，

right? And Sheree, you're going to interview me. You come out of your office to meet me and I'm on my cell phone. That small moment even that takes

我比我的面試官早到了房間。當他們走進來時，我要做什麼？我要站起來，對吧？

me to look up, right? Like you're already in forming an impression, right?

如果我坐著，他們從上面往下看我，這是一種權力姿態。相反，我要站起來迎接他們。

I'm I'm looking distracted. Our phones signal distraction usually. So something as simple as that could also be negatively impacting our impression even like before we've actually said anything. And then there's other

我喜歡那個。這麼簡單的事情但很多人沒有想到。

examples too where perhaps we're on a video call and I don't know if this has happened to you but I will get on a call with someone and they will be like oh

完全是。這些小事情累積起來。讓我們談談行政存在感。你如何定義它？

just one second I just have to like send off this message really quick.

行政存在感是關於當你走進房間時你的氣場。它是關於你散發出自信而不傲慢。

>> Mhm. >> I mean that's a little bit longer than one10enth of a second but that's still setting up the call not on the best footing. I don't have a good impression.

它是關於人們感覺他們可以信任你來領導。它是你如何保持自己、你如何溝通和你如何連結的組合。

I don't have a good feeling. The initial reaction is, "Oh, you're not paying attention to me. Like, you're not really present." >> Yeah, that actually reminds me, I think, first impressions, obviously, in the

這能學習嗎？或者這是天生的？

professional setting. >> Um, how you show up, how you bring yourself, like what you're doing, the distraction part, but I also remember listening to a podcast and was talking

絕對可以學習。很多人認為有些人天生有魅力而有些人沒有。但事實是這是一組可以培養的技能。

about first impressions in a romantic setting. >> Okay. And apparently on dates, like if your person who you're going on date with goes to the bathroom, you're not

你可以學習如何更好地講故事。你可以學習如何提問更好的問題。你可以練習你的肢體語言。

supposed to look at your phone while they're away because if they come back and you're looking at your phone, it signals like distraction or perhaps that you're not interested on like a very

這需要有意識的練習，但任何人都可以提高他們的行政存在感。

like subconscious level, but also in a romantic place like you're not supposed to seem distracted. That's what the podcast was saying.

我喜歡那個。讓我們談談會議。人們在會議中做錯了什麼？

>> Yeah. I thought you were going to take it in a different direction. I thought you were gonna say that like when you go on a first date,

最大的錯誤是不發言。人們坐在會議中，他們有想法，但他們害怕分享它們。

you kind of know in the first onetenth of a second if it's a no or is that just me?

他們等待「完美的時刻」。但問題是那個完美的時刻可能永遠不會來。

>> I think that just might >> first few minutes. Yeah.

所以我的建議是在會議的前五分鐘內發言。不管是問一個問題、提出一個觀點，還是只是回應某人說的話。

>> Yeah. >> No, I feel like you know like instinctually in the first second if it's a no.

為什麼是前五分鐘？

>> You don't know if it's yes vibes and also non-verbal cues like >> Yes. Yes. Totally. Like if someone has like bad posture when I first meet that.

因為如果你等太久，你會建立這種緊張感。你開始過度思考你要說什麼。你越等越難開口。

>> No. Like a date >> then I'm like hm >> no confidence signals no confidence.

而且早點發言會設定你是會議參與者的基調，而不只是被動的觀察者。

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So whether it's like a professional setting, romantic setting, like it applies.

這太好了。Zoom 會議呢？有不同的規則嗎？

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh continuing on first impressions, you call out RBF, which you call resting business phase.

是的，有一些關鍵的差異。首先，你的相機位置。確保它在眼睛的高度。很多人從下面往上看，這不討人喜歡。

I think other people might know it for something else uh similar, but it's a major career killer that could be silent.

第二，看著相機，不是看著螢幕。當你看著螢幕時，看起來你沒有在看著對方。

>> What's the fix for RBF, especially in the workplace and and describe it what it is first?

第三，注意你的背景。確保它是專業的或至少不會讓人分心。

>> Yeah, resting business face. We've all seen it sometime. Maybe we're the ones doing it, right? We're on a call and what happens is especially virtually, we're usually at home. We're relaxed.

第四，積極使用非語言線索。因為在 Zoom 上更難讀取房間，所以誇大你的點頭、微笑和手勢。

So, we get on a call and we're just not thinking about our facial expressions.

我喜歡這些技巧。讓我們談談高風險的場合。比如向高管做演示。

So, we're either neutral or looking kind of angry. And on video, those feelings are going to be even more magnified, right? And so, what RBF is or the antidote to RBF, it sounds really

好的。這是很多人感到害怕的地方。他們覺得他們必須完美。但事實是高管不期待完美。

obvious, but first is to smile and be aware of your facial expressions. I think just so many of us just aren't thinking about it because again, we're at home, we're comfortable, and so

他們期待清晰。他們很忙。他們想快速了解重點。

smiling is is an important one. And then there's also again non-verbal cues and affirmations that you can use on video.

所以在向高管演示時，先說結論。不要鋪墊。先給他們答案，然後提供支持細節。

So, nodding your head slowly, maybe raising your eyebrows if someone said something interesting, and again, smiling, right? If if what you're what what they're saying resonates with you.

另外，準備好問題。高管喜歡問尖銳的問題。如果你準備好了，你會看起來更有可信度。

So, there's those little things that you can do to break free from that RBF and show that you're engaged because especially if we're virtual, we only have so many touch points in a given

這是很好的建議。讓我們轉到第二部分。Leah Wire 和職場影響力。

day. And so, we want to make sure that our video presence is allowing us to show up in the way that we want to show up. I can't help but feel like this

歡迎 Leah 來到 Tiger Sisters。我們很高興你能加入我們。

advice is especially pertinent for women >> because that's sort of what is expected of you in society to kind of like exude I think we'll get into this later but

謝謝你們邀請我。我是你們播客的忠實粉絲。

like exude a certain level of warmth and I think a lot of women naturally or are like society >> trained to to do that in person. So like

讓我們談談職場影響力。你是如何定義它的？

if you're not conveying that on Zoom or it's harder to convey that on Zoom then people are sort of like perceive that negatively versus a man I think men

影響力是讓事情完成的能力，不通過正式權威，而是通過關係和可信度。

are you know oftenimes expected to be more stoic >> society so like it's not as much of a like a ding against you as a man but I totally see how that's very applicable

這是關於讓人們想要幫助你，想要支持你的想法，因為他們信任和尊重你。

as a woman >> again something to be aware of like we don't want to go so over the top and do something that feels unal But again, it's perception is reality, right? So,

在沒有職位權力的情況下你如何建立這種影響力？

how how are people perceiving you? And you want to be aware of that and make adjustments accordingly.

這始於建立真正的關係。不是交易性的。不是僅僅在你需要什麼的時候才出現。而是真正關心你工作的人。

>> Yeah. It's something within your control that you can try and change.

一個我用的策略是你如何對待行政助理、看門人和實習生和你對待 CEO 一樣好。

>> Yeah. Yeah. Love that. >> I'm like on one hand, it's so exhausting to like >> it's like so so exhausting, but then on the other hand, I'm like, well, I would

因為每個人都有影響力。每個人都在談論。如果你對某些人很好而對其他人不好，人們會注意到。

rather know like I'd rather be aware and have this information >> and then be able to like, >> you know, affect how people perceive me.

這太重要了。辦公室政治呢？你如何駕馭它而不感覺骯髒？

I don't want to just have no self-awareness.

這是一個很好的問題因為很多人認為政治是負面的。但事實上，政治只是組織如何運作的方式。

>> Right. I think over time too it will become more natural. Like of course if your natural face is always kind of angry like going against that

它是關於理解誰有影響力，決策是如何做出的，以及如何在這個系統中導航。

it's going to take a little time to get used to but I think like any skill like you practice and it'll become more natural.

我建議的第一件事是繪製權力圖。弄清楚誰是真正的決策者。有時候那不是有頭銜的人。

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. So Lorraine, you give scripts in your book >> to talk about how to talk about your accomplishments without seeming like you're bragging.

尋找非正式的影響者。那些沒有大頭銜但每個人都聽的人。

>> So how do you do this? The first thing to keep in mind is that we need to be vocal about our work. I think so many of

一旦你知道權力在哪裡，你就可以更有策略地了解你如何花時間和建立關係。

us and myself included, you think hard work speaks for itself, but if no one knows about it, what's it all for?

你如何讓你的工作被認可而不感覺你在自吹自擂？

Right? So, we need to know first and foremost that we do in fact have to talk about our work and make sure that we're being visible. So, when it comes to

這對很多人來說是一個掙紮，特別是女性和來自某些文化的人。我們被教導要謙虛。

advocating for ourselves to talking about our work, there's a few different things that you can do. So one thing for example there was data in Harvard Business Review that showed that when

但事實是，如果你不提倡你自己的工作，沒有人會為你做。

you use more collaborative language like we us our seen as more senior and more impressive than someone who perhaps uses a lot of eye statements. People who use

一個對我有效的策略是以團隊為框架。不是說「我做了 X」，而是說「我們團隊完成了 X，我領導了 Y 部分」。

I statements are going to be seen as more junior for example. There's other things that you can do as well. If you're uncomfortable talking about your work, frame it in terms of team

這感覺不那麼自吹自擂，但它仍然清楚地表明你的貢獻。

learnings, right? How is this going to help everyone else? Like, I'm proud I did this. Like, you know, I think this can be helpful to the rest of the team.

另一個策略是讓別人為你倡導。建立關係，當機會出現時，其他人可以提出你的名字。

And so, again, it's more of that collaborative spirit that I think makes it a little bit easier to talk about things. And then always when whenever you can, ground it in data, facts,

我喜歡那些策略。讓我們用一些最終想法來結束。

right? No one can really argue with that. Tie it to the company's bottom line. every executive, every senior leader will be so happy if you show them that you are doing work that's helping

感知加上影響力等於權力。這是我們今天討論的核心公式。

the business, right? So I think when you have those mindset shifts and you reframe things in that way, it can be a little bit more comfortable for the

首先，控制你發出的信號。你的行政存在感、你的非語言、你如何展示自己。

people who are perhaps a little bit more hesitant.

然後，建立真正的影響力。真實的關係，理解權力動態，以一種感覺真實的方式倡導你的工作。

>> At LinkedIn, where we both worked, >> we had a really >> not sponsored, >> not sponsored, but maybe >> but perhaps in the future.

當你兩者都有，你就可以獲得權力來真正完成事情並推進你的職業生涯。

>> LinkedIn premium. Um well so we had a very clear outlet of how to do this in our company which is there are these emails that teams could send

如果你喜歡這一集，請訂閱 Tiger Sisters 播客。在 Spotify 和 Apple Podcasts 上給我們五星評價。

announcing some of their wins and successes. >> If a company doesn't do that or if an individual is looking to gain more visibility what are some places where

分享就是關愛。感謝收聽。我們下次見。

people can do so like putting into place some of the things you just suggested.

拜拜。

Mhm. I love that you brought up those emails because when I went to prey right after, I immediately asked my boss, I was like, "How can I get like how can I

嗯。我很高興你提到了那些電子郵件，因為當我去Prey之後，我立刻問我的老闆，我就像是，「我怎麼能像是我怎麼能

email everyone? How can I get everyone on this list serve?" They didn't have an email like that or system like that. So, what I did was we did have a company

發郵件給每個人？我怎麼能讓每個人都上這個郵件列表？」他們沒有那樣的電子郵件或系統。所以，我做的是我們確實有一個公司

internet. So, that actually reached the whole company, which was even better than a specific email lister. So, finding the place where everyone's going to be, asking your manager, where are

內部網。所以，那實際上觸達了整個公司，這比特定的郵件列表更好。所以，找到每個人都會在的地方，問你的經理，

the senior leaders, the decision makers showing up? I think that's a really good first step. And then you don't have to always be so big and so wide reaching

高階主管、決策者會在哪裡出現？我認為這是一個很好的第一步。然後你不必總是那麼大和那麼廣泛地觸及

necessarily, right? You want to make sure you're reaching the right people at the right time. So for example, that might be, oh, there's a Slack channel with the CEO or Slack channel with the

不一定對吧？你想確保你在正確的時間接觸到正確的人。所以舉例來說，那可能是，喔，有一個跟CEO的Slack頻道或跟

the marketing leader who I want to reach. And it's not going to be our immediate small channel, but it's going to be one that reaches a few more

我想接觸的行銷主管的Slack頻道。而且它不會是我們直接的小頻道，而是會是一個能觸達更多

people. So that would be a really wonderful avenue. And then remember that we don't want to just say things once, but we want to try to find different places that we can repeat ourselves

人的頻道。所以那會是一個很好的管道。然後記住我們不只是想說一次事情，而是想嘗試找到不同的地方來重複我們自己

because everyone's so busy. Some of us are in person, some of us are remote, and so maybe half the people you want will end up seeing your message once,

因為每個人都很忙。我們有些人在現場，有些人遠端工作，所以也許你想要的一半人最終會看到你的訊息一次，

but repeat it and make sure that people aren't missing it.

但重複它並確保人們不會錯過它。

>> Can you talk a little bit more about the repeated exposure? That part is really interesting to me and I often forget that it's needed.

你能多談談重複曝光嗎？那部分對我來說真的很有趣，我經常忘記它是需要的。

>> Yeah. So, my uh former CEO used to say that you have to repeat things seven times in seven different ways before people actually retain the information, process what you're saying. And so, it

是的。所以，我之前的CEO常說你必須用七種不同的方式重複事情七次，人們才會真正保留信息，處理你說的。所以，這

is really critical. So, like imagine I send a a Slack message at 10:00 a.m., right? I'm missing a lot of people perhaps in the Apac time zone, even

真的很關鍵。所以，比如想像我在上午10:00發了一條Slack訊息，對吧？我可能錯過了很多亞太時區的人，甚至

Europe, right? And then there's so many messages that happen in a given day. And so to perhaps time your messages or send it in Slack and then also maybe send it

歐洲，對吧？然後一天中有這麼多訊息發生。所以，也許要安排你的訊息時間或在Slack中發送，然後也許也

in an email and then you also maybe mention the whatever it is you're learning in the the team meeting. So that's a way that you can keep promoting

發一封電子郵件，然後你也許也在團隊會議中提到你正在學習的任何東西。這樣你就可以繼續推廣

yourself and also helping people at the same time and making sure that people don't miss it. I also I loved your advice about if you want to sort of like

你自己，同時也幫助其他人，確保人們不會錯過。我也很喜歡你的建議，如果你想要

brag or talk about your accomplishment to sort of frame it in oh this is what I learned so that it's useful for other people because for me

炫耀或談論你的成就，用「這是我學到的」這種方式來包裝，這樣對其他人有用，因為對我來說

one thing that was always very easy was to talk about accomplishment when it was for like a group achievement like we you know launched a major platform or like a

有一件事一直很容易的是談論成就，當它是為了一個團體成就時，像是我們，你知道的，推出了一個主要平臺或像是一個

major feature because I felt like that was necessary because I wanted to shine a light on everyone else on my team and I wanted them to get the accolades. I

主要功能，因為我覺得那是必要的，因為我想要把聚光燈照在我團隊的其他人身上，我想要他們得到讚譽。我

wanted them to get the praise, etc. But when it comes to something that is like just me, it just feels so cringe and unnatural.

想讓他們得到讚美等等。但當涉及到只是我自己的事情時，它就感覺如此尷尬和不自然。

>> So, I think it's like more about like taking on that mindset, at least for me, to be like, "Okay, the reason I'm sharing this is not just to like show

所以，我認為這更像是採取那種心態，至少對我來說，就像是，「好的，我分享這個的原因不只是為了

off about what I did, but >> it it was hard to do this." Like, these are all the things that I had to learn or I had to push through, and if I can

炫耀我做了什麼，而是這很難做到。」像是，這些是我必須學習或我必須克服的所有事情，如果我能

share it and share that context, then it's actually useful for people. I'm not just >> showing off for the sake of showing off.

分享它並分享那個背景，那麼它對人們來說實際上是有用的。我不只是為了炫耀而炫耀。

>> Yeah, exactly. Everyone always likes a helpful teammate, right?

是的，沒錯。每個人總是喜歡一個樂於助人的隊友，對吧？

>> Yeah. >> What I'm hearing is that it is essential to have visibility within your company, but it can be really uncomfortable to talk about yourself and use I

是的。我聽到的是在你的公司內部擁有能見度是必要的，但談論自己和使用「我」

statements, which you don't want to do, but what you should do is talk about your team, what you've learned. Use wei statements to sound more collaborative.

的陳述可能真的很不舒服，你不想做這個，但你應該做的是談論你的團隊，你學到了什麼。使用「我們」的陳述來聽起來更有合作性。

And it can take like the ick feeling out of kind of bragging about yourself cuz you're talking about your team.

這可以把炫耀自己的那種噁心感覺消除，因為你在談論你的團隊。

>> Yeah. >> I think also this really applies to LinkedIn as well when you're writing a LinkedIn post. That's what I was thinking about like talking about your own accomplishment.

是的。我認為這也真的適用於LinkedIn，當你在寫LinkedIn貼文的時候。這就是我在想的，談論你自己的成就。

>> Yeah. Because in your book you also talk about like posting on LinkedIn is really important in this day and age talking about professional achievements but how you do it can still feel uncomfortable.

是的。因為在你的書中你也談到在這個時代在LinkedIn上發文真的很重要，談論專業成就，但你怎麼做仍然會感覺不舒服。

So applying this like using the Wii statements and posting about learnings so that it you're providing something of value to your audience and you're not just being like

所以應用這個，使用「我們」的陳述和發布關於學習的內容，這樣你就為你的受眾提供了一些有價值的東西，而不只是

>> I'm so excited to announce I'm humbled and >> honored.

我很興奮地宣布我很謙卑和榮幸。

>> Humbled and honored. >> I'm so thrilled.

謙卑和榮幸。我很高興。

>> I'm so thrilled to announce that I now have this investment banking job.

我很高興宣布我現在有了這份投資銀行的工作。

>> Yeah. >> This investment banking job. >> Yeah.

是的。這份投資銀行的工作。是的。

>> Now we know how she really feels.

現在我們知道她真正的感受了。

>> Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, going on a little bit tangent here with with LinkedIn, like you know, I talk about the the three types of content on LinkedIn, personal, um, professional,

是的。沒錯。所以，你知道的，在LinkedIn上稍微離題一下，你知道的，我談到了LinkedIn上的三種內容類型，個人的、嗯、專業的、

educational, and then, of course, the fourth sort of bonus pillar of promotional. So, anytime you can incorporate some personal, education, professional tie-in, right? It's going to be a little bit less like I'm

教育的，然後，當然，第四種額外的支柱是推廣性的。所以，任何時候你能結合一些個人的、教育的、專業的聯繫，對吧？它會少一點像是「我

bragging about myself, but I'm either sharing some insights, I'm talking about a challenge I went through, or I'm, you know, teaching you something. So, that's a way to like buffer it a little bit.

在炫耀自己」，而是我在分享一些見解，我在談論我經歷的挑戰，或者我在教你一些東西。所以，這是一種緩衝它的方式。

Well, you have a very large following on LinkedIn. Did you just give us like the secret formula of how to write a successful LinkedIn post?

嗯，你在LinkedIn上有很多粉絲。你剛才是不是給了我們如何寫一篇成功LinkedIn貼文的秘密公式？

>> I mean, that's that's one part. There's a lot of other other factors as well, but I think, you know, I came up with those three buckets because a lot of

我的意思是，那是一部分。還有很多其他因素，但我認為，你知道的，我想出了這三個類別，因為很多

people do get really nervous posting on LinkedIn. Me, >> yeah, >> I never do it. I just like draft off of Shereice post where she tags me and I'm

人在LinkedIn上發文真的會很緊張。我，是的，我從來不做這個。我只是借用Shereice標記我的貼文，我就

just like, I hope some people see that.

像是，我希望有些人看到那個。

>> Yeah. Like it's the question that I get most often about LinkedIn is, "Oh, I I have something that I I want to say, but you know, I'm I'm hesitant to to click

是的。就像我最常被問到關於LinkedIn的問題是，「喔，我有些東西想說，但你知道的，我猶豫要不要點

post and I just I'm I'm worried it needs to be the most original thought ever." And what I tell people is nothing on LinkedIn is original. Don't worry. Don't

發布，我只是擔心它需要是有史以來最原創的想法。」而我告訴人們的是LinkedIn上沒有什麼是原創的。別擔心。不要

put that stress on yourself. The people who stand out are the people who are talking about their experiences, people are connecting to them as a person, right? And and and maybe the way that

給自己那種壓力。脫穎而出的人是那些談論他們經歷的人，人們把他們當作一個人來連結，對吧？而且也許他們

they're framing things. again like everyone the content is all the same but the way people are packaging it and the the people themselves are different and so I think there's um you know people

框架事物的方式。同樣地，每個人的內容都是一樣的，但人們打包它的方式和人們本身是不同的，所以我認為，你知道的，人們

don't need to put so much pressure on themselves and so hopefully for the listeners that's something that you know gives them encouragement that yeah it's okay to post and you don't have to be

不需要給自己那麼大的壓力，所以希望對於聽眾來說，這是一些你知道的給他們鼓勵的東西，是的，可以發文，你不必

perfect or feel like yeah you're you're completely original >> you're like the LinkedIn therapist >> truly you really are >> yeah I feel so much better I'm like oh I

完美或感覺像是你完全是原創的，你就像LinkedIn治療師，真的你真的是，是的，我感覺好多了，我就像喔我

could do this so what were the three buckets that you want.

可以做這個。所以你想要的三個類別是什麼。

>> So, personal, educational, professional. >> Okay. And you want to try to hit all of them, all three or as many.

所以，個人的、教育的、專業的。好的。你想嘗試涵蓋所有三個或盡可能多的。

>> You can mix and match. Yeah. I think what usually happens is most people will start off with educational. I think that's the probably the easiest, right?

你可以混合搭配。是的。我認為通常發生的是大多數人會從教育類開始。我認為那可能是最簡單的，對吧？

I'm teaching someone something. Professional will be, oh, there's something happening in the news or in my industry that I want to talk about. And then the hardest one, but I think is but

我在教某人一些東西。專業類會是，喔，新聞中或我的行業中有些事情發生，我想談談。然後最難的一個，但我認為是但

resonates the most is the personal. So, the personal stories.

最有共鳴的是個人類。所以，個人故事。

>> But, you know, take some time to build up to it. Again, you don't have to put that pressure on yourself to to share all your deepest, darkest, you know,

但是，你知道的，花些時間慢慢建立起來。再說一次，你不必給自己那種壓力，馬上分享你所有最深最黑暗的，你知道的，

challenges and stories right away, but in due time, like you'll get more comfortable mixing it in. And then you'll realize by doing that, you're going to meet more people. More people

挑戰和故事，但隨著時間，你會更舒服地把它混合進去。然後你會意識到這樣做，你會遇到更多人。更多人

are going to engage with you, resonate with you, and so yeah, those are the three.

會與你互動，與你產生共鳴，所以是的，這就是三個類別。

>> I'm going to after this, I'm going to go and study all of your LinkedIn post >> like a workbook.

我在這之後要去研究你所有的LinkedIn貼文，就像一本作業本。

>> Nice. Let me know what you think after.

很好。之後讓我知道你的想法。

In our next section, we're going to talk about writing like a leader.

在我們的下一部分，我們要談談像領導者一樣寫作。

>> And in your book, you share that adding the word because, a very simple word, adding that to a sentence increases people's willingness and also compliance to do what you're asking by 93%

在你的書中，你分享了添加「因為」這個詞，一個非常簡單的詞，把它加到一個句子中可以增加人們的意願，也增加93%的遵從度

which is a lot. What's an everyday way to use that power without it feeling ick or kind of manipulative?

這是很多。有什麼日常的方法可以使用這個力量而不讓它感覺噁心或有點操控性？

with the word because I think the most common use case would probably be with deadlines.

用「因為」這個詞，我認為最常見的用例可能是設定截止日期。

>> Now, ideally, your team is meeting deadlines and and following through. But sometimes, you know, you need to give them a reason. So, in my last role at

現在，理想情況下，你的團隊會遵守截止日期並完成任務。但有時候，你知道的，你需要給他們一個理由。所以，在我上一份工作

Prey, I mentioned I sent out that uh weekly newsletter, right? And so, I needed my team to add things to it and to make sure that it was complete so I

在Prey，我提到我發送了那個每週通訊，對吧？所以，我需要我的團隊添加東西進去，確保它是完整的，這樣我

could publish it for the rest of the company. And so an example of where I might use that is can you please fill this out by Friday because I'm really

才能為公司其他人發布它。所以，一個我可能使用它的例子是「你能在週五之前填好這個嗎？因為我真的

excited to talk about what you did this week with the company or even the study that you're talking about Sheree is the Xerox study. You can even give not that

很興奮想跟公司談談你這週做了什麼。」或者甚至你談到的那個研究Sheree是影印機研究。你甚至可以給一個不那麼

great a reason and people will still will still be more inclined to actually do the thing. So you know instead of uh can you turn this to me on

好的理由，人們仍然會更傾向於真正去做這件事。所以，你知道的，而不是「你能在

on Thursday I might say can you deliver this by Thursday because I'm going to be out of office on Friday. So very simple.

週四之前交給我嗎」，我可能會說「你能在週四之前交給我嗎？因為我週五不在辦公室。」所以非常簡單。

I don't know why. Just that word just gives people a reason, right? Yeah. And when you have a reason, it's like, "Oh, okay. Now I know why I need to take

我不知道為什麼。就是那個詞給人們一個理由，對吧？是的。當你有一個理由時，就像是，「喔，好的。現在我知道為什麼我需要

action." You're not just telling me to do something or asking me to do something without a reason behind it.

採取行動。」你不只是在告訴我做某事或要求我做某事，而沒有背後的理由。

>> Yeah. I vaguely remember the study. It was like people, someone was standing in line and he wanted to cut the line, make copies, right? And he had to skip people

是的。我模糊地記得那個研究。就像是人們，有人排隊，他想插隊，要影印，對吧？他必須跳過一些人

at like a kinko or something. >> And in some of the instances, they had him say nothing but just ask. Some of the instances they had him say because

在像是Kinko's之類的地方。在一些情況下，他們讓他什麼都不說只是問。在一些情況下，他們讓他說因為

and then like a really good reason. And some of the instances it was just like because and then a lame reason that didn't even make any sense or like you wouldn't even

然後是一個真的很好的理由。在一些情況下，只是說因為然後是一個糟糕的理由，甚至沒有任何意義，或者你甚至不會

>> Exactly. So it was like the first one was >> you know I'm can I can I skip the line?

沒錯。所以就像第一個是，你知道的，我能插隊嗎？

Like most people are going to say no.

大多數人會說不行。

And then the next one was oh can I skip the line because I'm in a rush to make copies. So then again a lot of people said okay sure. And then the next one

然後下一個是「喔，我能插隊嗎？因為我趕著要影印。」所以很多人又說好吧。然後下一個

was uh can I skip the line because I need to make copies. So that was the one that was like, "Yeah, duh." Like not that great of a reason.

是「嗯，我能插隊嗎？因為我需要影印。」所以那個就像是，「是的，廢話。」像是不是那麼好的理由。

>> Yeah. >> And still like most people said, "Yeah, go ahead." >> So >> the power of the word because even if the reason's not good, >> yeah.

是的。而且大多數人還是說，「是的，請便。」所以「因為」這個詞的力量，即使理由不好，是的。

>> I'll be like, >> "Be careful with that power." >> >> It actually reminds me, one of my friends just told me that her mom has this like superpower where everywhere

我會說，「小心使用那個力量。」這其實讓我想起，我一個朋友剛告訴我她媽媽有這種超能力，就是無論去哪裡

she goes, she'll ask for a discount like just because, which I've like heard of people doing that, >> but she says that she does it even at like designer stores. And she said that

她會要求打折，就是因為，這我聽說有人做過，但她說她甚至在設計師商店也這樣做。她說

like for example she'll be at like Louis Vuitton >> and then when she's you know talking to the essay the sales associate she'll be like

比如她會在Louis Vuitton，然後當她，你知道的，跟銷售員說話時，她會說

>> you know what can you do for me like I would like >> I would like a discount because >> because I want one now >> because yes she wouldn't

「你知道嗎，你能給我什麼？我想要一個折扣，因為，因為我想要一個」現在她不會

really have a reason but she'd be like can I have your employee discount and then they give it to her.

真的有理由，但她會說「我能用你的員工折扣嗎？」然後他們就給她了。

>> Oh wow. >> So like >> I was so shookth when she told me this.

哇。所以，我聽她說這個的時候超震驚的。

I was like what? I'm like, first of all, I don't shop at Louis Vuitton, but you know, I'm gonna be walking out now.

我就像什麼？我就像，首先，我不在Louis Vuitton購物，但你知道的，我現在要走了。

Dior, like, Dior, watch out. I'm going to be coming in and asking for some sort of discount because >> I need one.

Dior，像是，Dior，小心。我要進去要求某種折扣，因為我需要一個。

>> Yeah, it's so interesting. I think generally I am a person who has a hard time asking for things at all. Like whether it's in the workplace, whether

是的，這很有趣。我想一般來說我是一個很難開口要東西的人。無論是在職場，無論

it's personal or romantic, like I just have a hard time asking for help, for example, or just asking for things. But I think I should experiment with being a

是個人的還是浪漫的，像是我就是很難開口尋求幫助，比如說，或者只是要求東西。但我想我應該嘗試更

bit more liberal with it and attach the word because to see what would happen.

大膽地使用它，並附上「因為」這個詞，看看會發生什麼。

>> Yeah. >> You should have a follow-up episode where you just use because and in just like random situations and then like come back and be like what worked.

是的。你應該有一個後續集，在那裡你只是在隨機情況下使用「因為」，然後回來說什麼有用。

>> We can test it out ourselves. >> Yeah.

我們可以自己測試一下。是的。

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. In your book you introduce the concept of an email haiku.

是的。是的。好的。在你的書中，你介紹了電子郵件俳句的概念。

>> What is it and why do executives love it? So this idea is actually Kim Scott.

它是什麼，為什麼高管們喜歡它？所以這個想法其實是Kim Scott的。

So she's the author of Radical Cander, one of the three dozen amazing amazing business leaders I got to interview for this book. Wow.

所以她是《徹底坦誠》的作者，是我為這本書採訪的三打令人驚嘆的商業領袖之一。哇。

>> And what she said was the email haiku is essentially a very thoughtful way of communicating. And what you want to do is a haiku is very short, right? When

她說的是電子郵件俳句本質上是一種非常有思想的溝通方式。你想做的是俳句很短，對吧？當

you write an email, you also want your email to be very short and essentially be able to fit on a smartphone screen without needing to scroll. Ooh, I like

你寫電子郵件時，你也想讓你的電子郵件非常短，基本上能夠在智能手機屏幕上顯示，不需要滾動。喔，我喜歡

that. Yeah, because people are busy, especially executives are busy, but you want to really think through like what can I eliminate? What's extra? So many of us are go go. So the way we're

那個。是的，因為人們很忙，尤其是高管很忙，但你真的想仔細考慮，我能去掉什麼？什麼是多餘的？我們很多人都在匆忙中。所以我們

communicating, we're shooting off messages here and there. We're not really being thoughtful. And then when that happens, okay, now my co-orker has to follow up for clarification or now um

溝通的方式，我們到處發訊息。我們並沒有真的很有思考。然後當那發生時，好吧，現在我的同事必須跟進澄清或者現在嗯

you know, they're they're missing the actual question. We're going back and forth and wasting time. But the email high coach is a very concise way of communicating your message, being

你知道的，他們錯過了實際的問題。我們來回浪費時間。但電子郵件俳句是一種非常簡潔的方式來溝通你的訊息，

respectful about the recipient's time. And then yeah, you you're going to have to use a little bit extra time, 20, 30 minutes to think through that, but it's going to lead to more productive

尊重收件人的時間。然後是的，你必須多花一點時間，20、30分鐘來思考，但它會帶來更有生產力的

collaborative teams and your co-workers going to appreciate you more.

協作團隊，你的同事會更感謝你。

>> Yeah. I So I took a class at Stanford and it was a really famous writing class called Winning Writing with Glenn Crayon who was a New York Times editor for 37 years.

是的。我在史丹佛上了一門課，這是一門非常有名的寫作課，叫做《贏在寫作》，由Glenn Crayon教授，他在紐約時報當了37年的編輯。

>> He's incredible. >> He's Hi Glenn. >> Hi Glenn. love you. He's fantastic. And you know, there's this one part of the class where we talk about email hygiene. Okay.

他很厲害。嗨Glenn。嗨Glenn。愛你。他很棒。你知道的，有一部分課程我們談論電子郵件衛生。好的。

>> And how to write like a good email so that it gets a response. And like one thing like you mentioned that's like super simple is like what will fit on a

還有如何寫一封好的電子郵件讓它得到回覆。像你提到的一件超級簡單的事情就是什麼能放在

smartphone. Like I think that is so smart because most people are on the go now and they don't >> check their email at their desk as like the first thing that they do. They're

智能手機上。我認為那真的很聰明，因為大多數人現在都在移動中，他們不會在辦公桌前把查看電子郵件當作第一件事。他們

mostly on their phone. So, like figuring out what is the subject line cuz they'll probably just read the subject line.

大多在手機上。所以，想清楚主題行是什麼，因為他們可能只讀主題行。

Like that's such >> that's really important, too.

那真的也很重要。

>> Important real estate. >> Yep. >> Yeah. I mean, that's I mean that's the that makes them want to open it, right?

重要的地盤。是的。是的。我的意思是，那就是讓他們想打開它的東西，對吧？

So, subject lines are so important. Um action needed. FY just FYI, no response needed. Um due April 7th, like whatever information you can include that will make someone open it, realize that it's

所以，主題行非常重要。嗯，需要行動。僅供參考，不需要回覆。嗯，截止日期4月7日，像是任何你能包含的信息，會讓某人打開它，意識到它是

timesensitive or even not timesensitive, right? Like that's that's your opening.

有時間限制的，或者甚至不是有時間限制的，對吧？那就是你的開場。

That's your first impression, right? But over email. Yeah.

那就是你的第一印象，對吧？但是是通過電子郵件。是的。

>> Yeah. This might be taking it to the extreme, but when I worked in finance, a lot of times we would just write the whole message in the subject line and

是的。這可能有點極端，但當我在金融業工作時，很多時候我們會把整個訊息寫在主題行裡，

try to keep it as short as possible. And at the end of it, we would write EOM, like in parentheses, end of message. So that they never even have to open >> nice

盡量保持簡短。在最後，我們會寫EOM，像是用括號，訊息結束。這樣他們甚至不用打開，很好

>> the email. They can just like read the subject line and then know the information.

電子郵件。他們可以只讀主題行然後知道信息。

>> Yeah. That's a that's a hard exercise.

是的。那是一個艱難的練習。

You really have to keep that tight. Yeah.

你真的必須保持那麼緊湊。是的。

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think it was just it was just like the common what everyone did. So I never thought twice about it.

是的。是的。而且我認為那只是每個人都做的常見事情。所以我從來沒有想過兩次。

I was like, "Oh, okay. Gotta make a really short message." "Oo." >> Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I think >> kind of a power move, too.

我就像，「喔，好的。得寫一條真的很短的訊息。」「喔。」是的。完美。是的。我認為那也是一種權力展示。

>> Yeah. >> So, the next thing we're going to talk about is more of the nonverbal cues that we kind of started on. So, you cite research that hand gestures when you're talking.

是的。所以，我們接下來要談的更多是關於非語言暗示，我們剛才開始談的。所以，你引用的研究說當你說話時使用手勢。

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Increase anecdote recall by 33%. just basically people remembering what you say.

是的。是的。增加了33%的軼事回憶。基本上就是人們記住你說的話。

>> Yeah. >> How do we use this in everyday life? And how do we also use this while we're on a Zoom call?

是的。我們如何在日常生活中使用這個？還有我們如何在Zoom通話中使用這個？

>> I want to talk about the Zoom call first because I feel like that's where most people miss using body language. So, there has been research that has been

我想先談談Zoom通話，因為我覺得那是大多數人忽略使用肢體語言的地方。所以，有研究

shown that when you use your hands on camera, you appear warmer, more personable, more energetic, more trustworthy, right? Because you're showing your hands.

顯示當你在鏡頭前使用雙手時，你看起來更溫暖、更有親和力、更有活力、更值得信任，對吧？因為你在展示你的手。

>> Is that what you're doing now? >> I know. I just cuz I'm like so used to using them. so energetically on video it like translated to inerson things but

你現在就在那樣做嗎？我知道。我只是因為我已經太習慣在視頻上很有活力地使用它們，它就轉移到當面的事情上了，但是

anyway like all these really positive things on video >> and that I mean we want those things right simply by showing your hands and so the everyone's just practicing

無論如何，所有這些真的很正面的事情在視頻上，而且那意味著我們想要那些東西對吧，只是通過展示你的手，所以每個人都在練習

>> the the first way to do that is to make sure on video that you have your framing correct so what you want to do a lot of

第一步是確保在視頻上你的取景正確，所以你想做的是很多

people it's like way up close and personal with your face or it's you know coming from the top so it's not really seeing your whole body so what you want

人就像是很近距離地對著你的臉，或者是從上面拍的所以不是真的看到你的整個身體，所以你想

to do is you want about like three to five fingers worth of space above the top of your head between the top of the the camera frame. And then you want to

要的是在你頭頂和攝像頭框架頂部之間大約三到五個手指寬度的空間。然後你想

actually show a little bit of your torso on camera. So a lot of people they kind of cut it off here. And so if you were to use your hands on camera with the

實際上在鏡頭上顯示一點你的軀幹。所以很多人他們有點在這裡切斷。所以如果你在

video cut off here, your hands are like by your head, which is super strange, right? Like you're just like this the whole time. However, they're down here

視頻切斷在這裡用你的手在鏡頭上，你的手就像是在你的頭旁邊，這超級奇怪，對吧？就像你一直這樣。然而，它們在這裡

now. You just have to lift your hands a little bit higher than feels normal to get them to fit in the camera. What a lot of people do is they keep their

現在。你只需要把你的手舉得比感覺正常的稍微高一點，讓它們出現在鏡頭中。很多人做的是他們把

hands down on their lap. Again, we're relaxed. at home on their lap, on their keyboard, on their mouse. So, they're moving their hands, but all what you're seeing is little twitches of the

手放在大腿上。再次，我們很放鬆。在家裡放在大腿上，在鍵盤上，在滑鼠上。所以，他們在動他們的手，但你看到的只是肩膀的小抽動，

shoulders, maybe a finger popping in and out of the screen. And so, what we want is to again adjust the framing so that we can move our hands higher up and then

也許一個手指不時地出現在屏幕上。所以，我們想要的是再次調整取景，這樣我們可以把手移得更高然後

use them naturally. I think we shouldn't need to or shouldn't try to overthink it too much because I know we can get in our heads and it's like, how do I use my

自然地使用它們。我認為我們不應該需要或不應該嘗試過度思考，因為我知道我們可能會陷入自己的腦袋裡，就像，我怎麼使用我的

hands again? Like, what's natural? But if you just relax like your hands will move naturally as you speak. So, yeah, a lot of a lot of really great benefits.

手了？什麼是自然的？但如果你只是放鬆，當你說話時你的手會自然移動。所以，是的，很多很多真的很好的好處。

And then yeah, like you said, Sheree, like more message recall, like you just seem more engaging. It's more interesting to see movement on screen, right? Versus just me sitting still with

然後是的，像你說的，Sheree，更多的訊息回憶，你就是看起來更吸引人。在屏幕上看到動作更有趣，對吧？相比我只是靜坐著

just my head for example. So yeah, very very powerful thing to include on video calls and presentations in meetings that still a lot of people aren't doing.

只是我的頭，例如。所以是的，在視頻通話和演示會議中包含這個非常非常強大，但仍然很多人沒有做。

>> Yeah, I think that makes so much sense psychologically when you think through it because >> they do all these studies on like what what is that kids TV show on YouTube?

是的，我認為當你仔細想想，這在心理上非常有道理，因為他們做了所有這些研究，關於那個在YouTube上的兒童電視節目？

The reason why kids are so addicted to it is because they change the screen every two seconds or something. Oh, like Cocoon.

孩子們對它如此上癮的原因是因為他們每兩秒就換一次屏幕或什麼的。喔，像Cocoon。

>> Coco Melon. Yes. It's like psychologically they set it up so that they flashed a different screen every 2 seconds, which is like >> that's why kids are like so locked into it.

Coco Melon。是的。就像是心理上他們設置成每2秒閃一個不同的屏幕，這就像是那就是為什麼孩子們就像是如此鎖定在裡面。

>> And so like it's kind of the same idea if you're watching someone and talking to them on camera. Like adding the hand movements is just more dynamic and it

所以像是這有點是同樣的想法，如果你在看著某人並在鏡頭上與他們交談。像是添加手勢更有動感，它

just adds another element of interest. And then it just like it's not just your head and your face like the whole time talking and you're like, you know, barely changing your expression.

只是增加了另一個興趣元素。然後它就不只是你的頭和臉一直在說話，你幾乎不改變表情。

>> Yeah. >> So it's more I don't know. It's just like human psychology, >> you know, unless you do this.

是的。所以它更像是我不知道。它只是人類心理，你知道的，除非你這樣做。

>> Just human psychology. There's like more interesting following something else.

只是人類心理。跟隨其他東西更有趣。

>> Yeah. You're more engaged when you also have like your hands free to like it's like a a third element of interest.

是的。當你也有雙手自由時，你更投入，就像是一個第三興趣元素。

>> Exactly. And also helps reinforce your message too.

沒錯。而且也有助於強化你的訊息。

>> Yeah. So it's going to like add emphasis when you need to add emphasis and Yeah.

是的。所以當你需要強調時，它會增加強調，是的。

just more memorable. >> Yeah. We um had an executive presence class. Oh, cool. Um like basically public speaking class um at Stanford and we had one lecture that was dedicated

更令人難忘。是的。我們在史丹佛上過一個高管形象課。喔，很酷。嗯基本上是公開演講課，我們有一堂課是專門講

Now I'm using my hands. >> Yeah. See, you just have to think about it and I'm like, yeah, it comes naturally.

現在我在用手了。是的。看，你只要想著它，我就像是，是的，它自然而然就來了。

>> We had one lecture that was dedicated to matching your hand movements to what you're saying. So, making sure that the vocal and the visual were aligned. And

我們有一堂課是專門講把你的手勢和你說的話配合起來的。所以，確保聲音和視覺是一致的。而且

obviously like you don't want to do too much hand movements, but if they can complent each other, like the message really sticks. For example, like if you're going to name

顯然你不想做太多手勢，但如果它們能互相補充，訊息真的會深入人心。例如，如果你要列舉

things, and this is mainly for like stage public speaking, so not really like this, but like if you're on stage and like you want to enumerate things, you can be like one,

事情，這主要是舞臺上的公開演講，所以不是真的像這樣，但像是如果你在舞臺上，想要列舉事情，你可以說「一，

>> two, and three. audience like the middle and then the third you're looking to the other side of the room.

二，三」。觀眾像是中間然後第三個你看向房間的另一邊。

But there's ways to match up your physical presence with your message so that people are like >> not only deeply engaged but also like following along.

但有方法可以將你的肢體存在與你的訊息配合起來，這樣人們不僅深度投入，而且也跟著走。

>> Yeah, exactly. And I think it gives the impression also that like you're locked in to your own message and what you're saying that you >> have a lot of like you like belief

是的，沒錯。而且我認為這也給人一種印象，就像是你對你自己的訊息和你說的話很投入，你有很多像是你像是相信

behind it basically if you're like putting your whole body emphatically.

它基本上如果你用你的整個身體強調地表達。

>> Yeah. Emphatic. You're like it seems like you believe your message more as opposed to like oh you're kind of just like talking. Yeah.

是的。強調。你就像是你看起來你更相信你的訊息，而不是像喔你只是在談話。是的。

>> And even if you're not on stage and you're saying like one, two, three. I think like naturally when I enumerate I'm like well one two three.

而且即使你不在舞臺上，你說的像是「一，二，三」。我認為自然地當我列舉時我會說「好，一，二，三」。

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. The energy is also a huge piece on video that we're lacking. So the body language really adds adds to that.

是的。是的。能量也是視頻上我們缺少的一個巨大部分。所以肢體語言真的增加了那個。

>> I think I can trick myself like if I'm on Zoom and I'm like low energy for a meeting, I might be able to trick myself into being higher energy if I use my

我認為我可以欺騙自己，像是如果我在Zoom上，對一個會議沒有活力，我也許可以通過多使用我的

hands more. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

手來欺騙自己變得更有活力。是的。是的。是的。

>> I can trick myself if I have a huge cup of matcha.

如果我有一大杯抹茶，我可以欺騙自己。

>> That's part of it, too. >> That works as well.

那也是其中一部分。那也有用。

>> Yeah. >> Okay. Let's move on to the section about confidence, language, and authority.

是的。好的。讓我們進入關於自信、語言和權威的部分。

>> Okay. >> All right. You say that one of the phrases we should try to avoid is does this make sense?

好的。好的。你說我們應該避免使用的一個短語是「這有道理嗎？」

>> Is it ever okay to use this phrase or is it always undermining your message?

使用這個短語可以嗎？或者它總是在削弱你的訊息？

>> That is by far when I teach about executive presence and and communication when I talk about minimizing language and the need to remove minimizing language which are words or phrases that

當我教授高管形象和溝通時，這是迄今為止，當我談論減少弱化語言和消除弱化語言的需要時，弱化語言是那些會

weaken your message and then make you look less confident or less sure of yourself. Does that make sense? Whenever I give that one as an example, everyone

削弱你的訊息並讓你看起來不那麼自信或不那麼確定自己的詞語或短語。「這有道理嗎？」每次我給出那個作為例子，每個人

in the chat is always firing off like, "Oh, I just used that like three times today." And and you know, I've used it, too. And so with that, it it feels like

在聊天中總是說，「喔，我今天就用了大概三次。」而且你知道的，我也用過。所以對於那個，它感覺像

you're being collaborative. Like I'm asking you, "Does does that make sense?

你在合作。像是我在問你，「這有道理嗎？

Let me know." Right? But when you ask it like that, it can make it seem like you're not actually sure if what you actually said does in fact make sense.

讓我知道。」對吧？但當你那樣問時，它可能看起來像是你實際上不確定你說的是否真的有道理。

And so small tweak, let me know if you have any questions.

所以小調整，如果你有任何問題請讓我知道。

>> So now you're sure about what you just said and you're still inviting collaboration in. So, there's a lot of phrases like that that we use throughout the day without even realizing it. But

所以現在你對你剛才說的很確定，而且你仍然在邀請合作。所以，有很多像這樣的短語我們一整天都在使用而沒有意識到。但

again, those small tweaks make you come across as a lot more powerful, confident, authoritative.

再次，那些小調整讓你看起來更強大、更自信、更有權威。

>> Minimizing language. >> Yeah. What are some other examples of like minimizing language that we should avoid because I feel like I probably have a lot of those in my vocabulary.

弱化語言。是的。還有什麼其他的弱化語言的例子我們應該避免，因為我覺得我的詞彙表裡可能有很多那些。

>> Another one that's really common is because we're in so many backto-back meetings, we're sometimes running late.

另一個真的很常見的是因為我們有這麼多連續的會議，我們有時候會遲到。

So, we join a meeting and we're kind of frantic and we're like, "Oh my god, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry I'm late." M >> instead you might change that to thank

所以，我們加入會議，有點慌張，我們說，「喔天哪，抱歉，抱歉，抱歉，抱歉我遲到了。」M，相反你可能會改成「非常

you so much for your patience. Really appreciate it.

感謝你的耐心。真的很感謝。」

>> So instead of coming in kind of frenzied and forcing the other person to say no no it's okay. Right now the person feels good. You showing appreciation you're

所以不是進來有點慌張並強迫對方說「沒沒沒關係」。現在對方感覺很好。你表現出感謝，你

starting the meeting off on a more positive footing. Oh no problem. Yeah let's get started.

以更積極的基調開始會議。沒問題。是的，讓我們開始吧。

>> Instead of using I think all the time you might say I recommend or you know the data suggests that. So again, like really really small tweaks, but it makes

不要一直用「我認為」，你可能會說「我建議」或「你知道的，數據顯示」。所以，再次，真的真的很小的調整，但它

a big difference over time. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. I think it's also like now we have like more confidence in what we're talking about and more confidence in ourselves

隨著時間會有很大的不同。嗯。是的。我認為這也像是現在我們對我們談論的東西有更多自信，對我們自己有更多自信

>> and that just comes across no matter what you're talking about.

那就會自然流露，無論你在談論什麼。

>> Yeah, I agree. >> But practice really does help.

是的，我同意。但練習確實有幫助。

>> The next question is um I guess is it spicy? Maybe >> a little bit. A little bit. Just a little.

下一個問題是，嗯，我想它有點辣？也許有點。有點。只有一點。

>> A little spicy. >> A little spicy.

有點辣。有點辣。

>> Okay. So, I think we've all seen this in the workplace or heard about it from a friend of a friend, but like often times confident people, confident women get overlooked um because they're

好。所以，我認為我們都在職場中看到過這個，或者從朋友的朋友那裡聽說過，但經常自信的人，自信的女性會被忽視，嗯，因為她們

interrupted and there's a person in the workplace, maybe it's a narcissist, like someone who's very loud. Um >> they they get promoted because they're the ones that are heard more.

被打斷，還有職場中有一個人，也許是自戀者，像是很大聲的人。嗯，他們得到晉升因為他們是被聽到更多的人。

>> Why do you think this dynamic plays out?

你認為這種動態為什麼會發生？

And >> what do you think needs to change? I think it goes back to that visibility discussion we had earlier where yeah, if you're if you're louder, people are

還有你認為需要改變什麼？我認為這回到我們之前討論的能見度問題，是的，如果你更大聲，人們

going to see you. Now, I don't think it makes sense to always reward the really loud person just because they're loud.

會看到你。現在，我不認為只是因為那個人很大聲就總是獎勵真的很大聲的人是有道理的。

Like, you need to be able to back it up.

像是，你需要能夠支持它。

And my hope is if someone were promoting someone simply because they were loud, at a certain point, they would realize, oh, this person can't go any further because they're not actually

我希望的是如果有人只是因為他們大聲就提拔某人，在某個時候，他們會意識到，喔，這個人不能再往上走了，因為他們實際上沒有

doing the good work, right? Uh, but I think it is really critical to talk about your work and make it known. And I think what happens often during those

做好工作，對吧？呃，但我認為談論你的工作並讓它被知道真的很重要。而且我認為在那些

critical promotion times that we're not taught, and I certainly didn't know this when I, you know, first try to go out for a promotion, is that, oh, you're not

關鍵的晉升時刻經常發生的，我們沒有被教過的，而且當我，你知道的，第一次嘗試爭取晉升時我肯定不知道這個，那就是，喔，你不

supposed to bring it up right when review time is happening.

應該在考核時間剛剛到來時才提起它。

>> Like, this is a thing that needs to be thought about months in advance. So, there's actually quite a lot of strategy behind it. So, instead of telling my

像是，這是一件需要提前幾個月考慮的事情。所以，實際上背後有相當多的策略。所以，而不是在我寫完我的考核後告訴我的

manager after I wrote my review, oh, you know, I would love to get promoted this cycle, this is a conversation I should have mentioned six months ahead of time.

經理，喔，你知道的，我想這個週期被晉升，這是我應該提前六個月提到的對話。

I should have a better understanding of who's going to be in the room. And there are in fact other people in the room, which I also did not realize. I thought

我應該更好地了解誰會在房間裡。而且實際上房間裡還有其他人，這我也沒意識到。我以為

it was just my manager just deciding, okay, Lorraine's ready, right? So, who's in the room? Do they know that you want to get promoted? What are the skills

只是我的經理在決定，好，Lorraine準備好了，對吧？所以，誰在房間裡？他們知道你想被晉升嗎？什麼是

that might be missing or what what is potentially stopping you from getting that promotion? How can you address it?

可能缺少的技能或什麼可能阻止你獲得那個晉升？你怎麼能解決它？

Again, give yourself that time, right, so that you can actually prepare for when the actual discussion happens. So I think um that foresight and you know throughout the book I'm talking about

再次，給自己那個時間，對吧，這樣你可以真正為實際討論發生時做好準備。所以我認為那個遠見，而且你知道的，在整本書中我在談論

being intentional about your career, becoming the CEO of your own career that's really about taking things into your own hands and yeah maybe that loud annoying guy is getting promoted but

對你的職業要有意識，成為你自己職業的CEO，那真的是關於把事情掌握在自己手裡，是的，也許那個大聲煩人的傢伙在得到晉升，但

don't let him you know be a cloud over you like make your voice heard too by being more strategic but being thoughtful about it not just being that loud annoying voice. I think people

不要讓他，你知道的，成為籠罩在你頭上的烏雲，也讓你的聲音被聽到，通過更有策略但對它很有思考，不只是成為那個大聲煩人的聲音。我認為人們

don't realize that there is so much strategy that goes behind promotion and promotion decisions. And I think just that sentence I said sounds >> really ick but I it's kind of the truth

沒有意識到晉升和晉升決定背後有這麼多策略。而且我認為我說的那句話聽起來真的很噁心，但這有點是

of the corporate workplace. >> And I think a lot of people who are early or midcareer are like they don't know that or starting to figure that out.

企業職場的真相。而且我認為很多早期或中期職業的人就像是他們不知道那個或開始發現那個。

>> And let me add a point there that I didn't even mention is that you first have to let your manager know that you want to get promoted and say it. Again,

讓我在那裡補充一點，我甚至沒提到的是，你首先必須讓你的經理知道你想被晉升並說出來。再次，

I assumed that they would know. Of course, I'm ambitious. Like, who doesn't want to get promoted? Well, actually, there's a lot of people who don't want to get promoted and who are happy with

我以為他們會知道。當然，我有野心。像是，誰不想被晉升？嗯，實際上，有很多人不想被晉升，對他們

where they are. So, we have to make it known in the first place. And then, again, like we were talking about repeating things multiple times. I mean,

現在的位置很滿意。所以，我們首先必須讓它被知道。然後，再次，像我們談到的重複事情很多次。我的意思是，

you're not going to want to bring it up every one-on-one meeting every week, but >> make it known, like, keep repeating it.

你不會想每週的一對一會議都提起它，但讓它被知道，像是，持續重複它。

Make sure your manager doesn't forget about it.

確保你的經理不會忘記它。

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think the benefit of bringing it up early with your manager is that they can kind of make a plan for

是的。是的。而且我認為早點跟你的經理提起它的好處是他們可以提前為

you ahead of time and then you can work on that plan together and then it feels like it's like this joint effort. They can advocate for you.

你制定一個計劃，然後你們可以一起執行那個計劃，然後感覺像是這是一個共同的努力。他們可以為你辯護。

>> Yeah. Well, they have to advocate for you, but yes. And they they can start to advocate, they can plant the seeds early on >> on your behalf because then like not

是的。嗯，他們必須為你辯護，但是是的。而且他們可以開始辯護，他們可以提早代表你播下種子，因為那樣不

only do you have to let them know, they have to start doing the leg work like months in advance so that they figure out who else is going to be in that

只是你必須讓他們知道，他們必須提前幾個月開始做跑腿的工作，這樣他們才能弄清楚還有誰會在那個

room. I guess I'm speaking about this from my perspective of having been a manager and done this. They have to figure out who else is going to be in

房間裡。我想我是從作為一個經理並這樣做過的角度來說這個的。他們必須弄清楚還有誰會在

the room. Who do I need to also, you know, vote yes for my direct report? And who do I think is going to have objections? How do I like work against

房間裡。我需要讓誰也投票同意我的直接下屬？我認為誰會有反對意見？我怎麼

those objections or start to, you know, mllify them months in advance? What do they think? How do I need to how can I work with my direct report so that they

反對那些反對意見或開始，你知道的，提前幾個月緩和它們？他們怎麼想？我怎麼能跟我的直接下屬合作，這樣他們

can start to address these things directly with this person? There's like so much to do, >> so much work that goes into it. And I think yes, you're totally totally right

可以開始直接與這個人解決這些事情？有太多事要做，太多工作要投入。而且我認為是的，你完全完全對了

that the first thing you need to do is bring your manager on board so that you're both like it's the two of you like against the world kind of feeling.

你需要做的第一件事是讓你的經理加入，這樣你們兩個就像是你們兩個對抗世界的那種感覺。

>> Yeah. They're going to be more invested if if you bring them in.

是的。如果你把他們帶進來，他們會更投入。

>> Yeah. They have to be very invested because honestly it's a lot of work for them.

是的。他們必須非常投入，因為老實說這對他們來說是很多工作。

>> Mhm. So, in the workplace, in the like the corpor like the big corporations where there is a lot of behind the scenes that needs to happen um for promotion to happen,

嗯。所以，在職場，在像是大公司這樣的地方，有很多幕後工作需要為晉升發生，

>> does your boss need to like you in order for you to get promoted? Because there's a lot of things that you have to do like you just named.

你的老闆需要喜歡你才能讓你被晉升嗎？因為有很多事情你必須做，就像你剛才說的。

>> Yeah, they have to like you. Even if they don't like your personality, they have to like what you bring to the table and you have to make their lives like 10 times easier.

是的，他們必須喜歡你。即使他們不喜歡你的個性，他們必須喜歡你帶來的東西，你必須讓他們的生活輕鬆10倍。

>> Yeah. in some way or the other, whether or not you're it's your like sunny and beautiful disposition and presence every single day >> or you're like the result.

是的。以某種方式，無論是你陽光燦爛美麗的性格和每天的存在，還是你是結果。

>> Yeah. Or like you're, you know, a 10x performer.

是的。或者像是你是一個10倍的高績效者。

>> Yeah. I think that they respect you, right? I mean, maybe they don't like your personality or you're not like best friends, but they have to respect your

是的。我認為他們尊重你，對吧？我的意思是，也許他們不喜歡你的個性或你們不是最好的朋友，但他們必須尊重你的

work, respect what you do, respect your career.

工作，尊重你做的事情，尊重你的職業。

>> Lorraine, thank you so much for being here and giving us the real talk.

Lorraine，非常感謝你來這裡並給我們這些真實的談話。

>> Of course. Thank you for having me. This was amazing. So fun.

當然。感謝你們邀請我。這太棒了。太有趣了。

>> Yay. >> Um, we didn't just talk about communication and visibility, but really what it takes to be unforgettable in the workplace.

耶。嗯，我們不只是談了溝通和能見度，而是真正談了在職場中成為令人難忘的人需要什麼。

>> And you really gave us the playbook on how to speak and how to present ourselves so people listen. So, we always say that we want to be the internet's career mentors and big

你真的給了我們關於如何說話和如何展示自己讓人們傾聽的劇本。所以，我們總是說我們想成為網路上的職業導師和

sisters that we never had. And today, you were the trusted expert that we all needed. and you were practical, you were empowering, and really just bringing so much wisdom and like kind big sister

我們從未有過的大姐姐。而且今天，你是我們都需要的可信賴的專家。你很實際，你很有力量，而且真的帶來了這麼多智慧和像是善良的大姐姐

energy and information to all of our listeners. So, thank you so much.

能量和資訊給我們所有的聽眾。所以，非常感謝你。

>> Oh my gosh, thank you. This was seriously so fun.

喔天哪，謝謝你們。這真的太有趣了。

>> So, guys, if this conversation made you rethink your presence or your LinkedIn posts or any sort of announcements you were trying to make, please take 10 seconds to like, follow, and subscribe

所以，各位，如果這個對話讓你重新思考你的存在或你的LinkedIn貼文或任何你想要發布的公告，請花10秒鐘點讚、關注、訂閱

and also rate us five stars on Spotify and also Apple Podcasts. It really makes Oh, because >> because >> because because >> it really helps our podcast be discovered and shared with other people.

還有在Spotify和Apple Podcasts給我們五星評價。這真的讓喔，因為，因為，因為，因為，這真的幫助我們的播客被發現和分享給其他人。

>> Awesome. We'll see you next time on the Tiger Sisters podcast. Bye.

太棒了。我們下次在Tiger Sisters播客見。拜拜。

>> Wow, that was an incredible episode and interview with Lorraine. And if the first half made you realize, oh, I'm being misread or misunderstood, that's not a bad thing. That's actually a

哇，那是一個與Lorraine的令人難以置信的集數和訪談。而且如果上半部分讓你意識到，喔，我被誤讀或誤解了，那不是壞事。那其實是一個

really good thing to know. Exactly. Because once you know the signal that you're putting out, then you can actually change the outcome. Not by necessarily changing yourself, but by

很好的事情要知道。沒錯。因為一旦你知道你發出的信號，你就可以真正改變結果。不是一定要改變你自己，而是

really changing the message that you're putting out there. And so now we're switching to the second half of our episode where we talk about influence.

真正改變你發出的訊息。所以現在我們切換到我們這集的下半部分，我們談論影響力。

It's all about turning perception into trust, scope, and new opportunities. And as you guys listen to the next episode, we want you to think about one thing

這一切都是關於把感知轉化為信任、範圍和新機會。而且當你們聽下一集時，我們希望你思考一件

that you want to make happen by the end of Q1. Is it a comp bump? Is it being more influential? Is it having a bigger role? and listen to the exact language

你想在Q1結束前完成的事情。是加薪嗎？是變得更有影響力嗎？是有更大的角色嗎？並聽聽你可以從Leah那裡借用的確切語言

that you can borrow from Leah. And the higher you go, the more you're managing perceptions, politics, and honestly, your own nervous system. Yeah. And I love how Leah is so honest about all the

你爬得越高，你就越多地在管理認知、政治，老實說，還有你自己的神經系統。是的。而且我喜歡Leah如何對過去她做這些的所有

different ways she's done it in the past with all these examples, and she basically tells you how to do it also in real time. Great. So, let's get into part two with Leo Wire.

不同方式如此誠實，有所有這些例子，她基本上告訴你如何即時做到。很好。所以，讓我們進入與Leo Wire的第二部分。

>> Hi, Leah. >> Hi. >> Hi. We're so excited that you're here.

嗨，Leah。嗨。嗨。我們很興奮你在這裡。

Could you please introduce yourself to the audience in your own words?

你能用你自己的話向觀眾介紹一下自己嗎？

>> Sure. So my name is Leah Wy and I am the president of the beauty style and entertainment brands at dot dash Meredith. So those are people entertainment weekly in style birdie

當然。所以我的名字是Leah Wy，我是dot dash Meredith美容、風格和娛樂品牌的總裁。所以那些是People、Entertainment Weekly、InStyle、Birdie

brides people in espanol. >> I love it.

Brides、People en espanol。我喜歡它。

>> Wow. >> An iconic list. It keeps going.

哇。一個標誌性的名單。它還在繼續。

>> Incredible. >> Keeps going. >> It can't go. No more additions. We're good. Leah, I feel like a a misconception that a lot of people have is that beauty editors just spend their

難以置信。還在繼續。不能再加了。我們很好。Leah，我覺得很多人有一個誤解，認為美妝編輯整天就是

whole day like playing with lip gloss or something like that, but in reality, even when you were at Cosmo, you were in charge of basically generating the majority of revenue

在玩唇彩什麼的，但實際上，即使你在Cosmo的時候，你基本上負責創造大部分的收入

>> for for the business. So, when was the moment where you kind of realized like, oh like I am a really powerful businesswoman. It was never lost on me

為業務。所以，什麼時候你才意識到，喔，我是一個真正強大的商業女性。我從來沒有忘記

that there was a business role to play as a beauty editor. Now, you had the creative side of being a beauty editor, which was >> you had a blank slate of pages every

作為美妝編輯有一個商業角色要扮演。現在，你有作為美妝編輯的創意方面，那就是你每個

month that you had to fill. You had to create a direct feature or something that you were doing on set. So, it was all this right brain stuff that happened, but it was very

月有一個空白的頁面需要填滿。你必須創作一個直接特輯或你在片場做的東西。所以，發生了所有這些右腦的東西，但它非常

clear from the start. And I had first been hired as the beauty and style uh editor for health magazine which didn't you don't think that did a lot of beauty

清楚從一開始。而且我首先被聘用為《健康》雜誌的美容和風格編輯，你不會認為那做了很多美容

but we actually did do a lot of sort of wellness beauty before it was really a trend >> and it was a lot of skin a lot of

但我們實際上做了很多健康美容，在它真正成為趨勢之前，而且很多是皮膚很多

science and I loved that because the first 10 years of being a beauty editor I was at all these different wellness magazines. So, it's at Health Magazine and Self Magazine, um, Fitness Magazine.

科學，我喜歡那個，因為作為美妝編輯的前10年，我在所有這些不同的健康雜誌。所以，是在《健康》雜誌和《自我》雜誌，嗯，《健身》雜誌。

And so, you had like you learned how to be like a real reporter, how to respect science, how to read studies, all of this stuff that was that made the

所以，你有像是你學會了如何成為一個真正的記者，如何尊重科學，如何閱讀研究，所有這些東西使

stories really meaty and interesting. You had to balance the business side of being a beauty editor, which meant being super aware of who your advertisers were >> and really meant like paying attention

故事真的很有料和有趣。你必須平衡作為美妝編輯的商業方面，這意味著超級清楚你的廣告商是誰，而且真的意味著關注

to what they were launching. And you had to have this dance of like, okay, so advertiser X was launching something that that would be interesting to your readers. That's what you had to focus

他們在推出什麼。而且你必須有這種舞蹈，好吧，廣告商X在推出一些對你的讀者有趣的東西。那就是你必須專注

on. Like what's the hook for my readers?

的。像是對我的讀者來說有什麼吸引力？

And you just started like with every magazine, it was a different way of doing that business. It was really like up the Annie when I got to Cosmo because

然後你就開始，像是對每本雜誌，都是做那個業務的不同方式。當我到Cosmo的時候真的提升了一個檔次，因為

beauty drove so much of Cosmo's revenue. >> Yeah. And that I think was the moment where I was like, "Wow, I almost equally report in to the editor-inchief as I do to the publisher."

美容推動了Cosmo這麼多的收入。是的。而且那我認為是我說「哇，我幾乎同樣向主編彙報也向出版商彙報」的時刻。

>> Constantly on sales calls with your sales team, with your publisher. You're in the room with these incredibly important and brilliant CMOs who are asking you to suggest ideas to them for

經常跟你的銷售團隊、你的出版商進行銷售電話。你在房間裡與這些非常重要和聰明的CMO們在一起，他們要求你為

their business that would work for your readership. And so you start to develop this marketing skill. It was just a different way of doing the business side

他們的業務建議對你的讀者群有用的點子。所以你開始發展這種行銷技能。這只是做美妝編輯商業方面

of being a beauty editor. And that I think really happened when I got to Cosmo. So that was maybe like 10 years into my career.

的不同方式。而且那我認為真的發生在我到Cosmo的時候。所以那可能像是我職業生涯的10年。

>> Like I'm just imagining being in that role. And the amount of kind of like >> I guess like finesse and also strategy that you have to have is I can just

像是我只是在想像處於那個角色。而且我能想像你必須擁有的那種圓滑和策略是

imagine is like very high level because you have so many stakeholders. Yes. Yes.

非常高層次的，因為你有這麼多利益相關者。是的。是的。

And like every decision that you make results in like kind of more or less revenue for your business, for their business, for interest, for your readership, like

而且你做的每一個決定都會導致你的業務、他們的業務、對你的讀者群的興趣產生更多或更少的收入，像是

>> yes, it's very high risk because the advertisers at Cosmo was a mass brand. I mean, it still is. So, it's very much appealing to not just the coasts, right?

是的，風險非常高，因為Cosmo的廣告商是一個大眾品牌。我的意思是，它仍然是。所以，它非常吸引不只是海岸地區，對吧？

Like there were there are fashion and style magazines that are really appealing to the coast. Different type of reader, different type of advertiser.

像是有一些時尚和風格雜誌真的吸引海岸地區。不同類型的讀者，不同類型的廣告商。

>> Yeah. When you have a brand like Cosmo, even a brand like People, >> very middle of America, very just sort of everyday person, those advertisers are like the money bags. Like PNG,

是的。當你有一個像Cosmo這樣的品牌，甚至像People這樣的品牌，非常中美洲，非常普通人，那些廣告商就像是金主。像是寶潔、

Unilver, L'Oreal, like all of these brands. And so >> to be in the room with these type of people, learn how to pitch an idea, learn how to craft it in your mind in

聯合利華、歐萊雅，像是所有這些品牌。所以，跟這類人在一個房間裡，學習如何推銷一個想法，學習如何在

the moment because usually those things are coming up in a brainstorming session. that's live, you don't really have a ton of time to prepare for it.

當下在腦海中構思它，因為通常那些東西是在一個即時的頭腦風暴會議中產生的，你沒有太多時間準備。

And they want that. Like they want you in the room listening. This is my objective. What how does it work for your reader and you have to just do it

而且他們想要那個。像是他們想要你在房間裡傾聽。這是我的目標。這對你的讀者怎麼適用，你必須快速做到

quick? And so it became very obvious to me that if I could get really good at this, I could have a really long-lasting career because it's not just the

？所以我就很明顯，如果我能真的擅長這個，我可以有一個真正持久的職業，因為不只是

creative ideas, which are important, but the creative ideas really.

創意想法，雖然很重要，但創意想法真的。

You can create an idea that works in print that also works >> in digital, that also works in social or that works in an app, but they they're

你可以創造一個在印刷品中有效的想法，也在數位中有效，也在社交媒體中有效，或在應用程式中有效，但它們

really just nuances of each other in some way. Mhm.

真的只是在某種程度上彼此的細微差別。嗯。

>> The stakes are always changing in the world of marketing. Everything is a new thing, a different thing, a shiny thing, like the next thing. And that's the

在行銷世界中，風險總是在變化。一切都是新事物，不同的事物，閃亮的事物，像是下一個東西。那就是

piece that you had to really pay attention to, like how's the world changing? Like what do they want now?

你必須真正關注的部分，像是世界在如何變化？像是他們現在想要什麼？

What what's a new new thing? These these big companies want a first to market moment. They don't want a recycled idea that you did with somebody last month.

什麼是新新的東西？這些大公司想要一個市場先機的時刻。他們不想要一個你上個月跟別人做過的回收想法。

They want something new and fresh. And so, you're just constantly creating. I knew that if I could get good at that that I would have a long lasting career.

他們想要新鮮的東西。所以，你只是不斷地創造。我知道如果我能擅長那個，我會有一個持久的職業。

>> Yeah, >> I love that. >> I love that because I can tell that this role >> uses so many different parts of your brain. It's like obviously like very

是的，我喜歡那個。我喜歡那個，因為我能看出這個角色使用了你大腦的很多不同部分。它像是顯然很

creative, but then you're also a connector between your readership, the audience, and these massive brands and trying to like bridge that connection like what do they want and how can I best

有創意，但你也是你的讀者群、觀眾和這些大品牌之間的連接者，試圖架起那個連結，像是他們想要什麼，我怎麼能最好地

>> serve them in that way? >> Yeah.

以那種方式服務他們？是的。

>> Yeah. You almost have to be as much of an expert about your reader >> as you are about your partner or potential partner sitting across the

是的。你幾乎必須成為你的讀者方面的專家，就像你是坐在你對面的合作夥伴或潛在合作夥伴方面的專家一樣

table from you. You have to know what they want for their customer >> and how that can be as important to your reader as it is for them to achieve for

。你必須知道他們想要為他們的客戶什麼，以及這對你的讀者來說如何能像對他們實現

their customer. That's like the magical moment that happens when you can do that and you can hit that like I mean there's there's like three or four moments of my

客戶目標一樣重要。那就是當你能做到那個並能達到那個的神奇時刻，我的意思是我職業生涯中有三四個那樣的時刻

career where I was like I nailed it >> and I mean state >> Yeah. where you were like >> wow that was like really good.

我就像是我搞定了，而且我的意思是狀態，是的。你就像是哇那真的很好。

>> Yeah. So you know when that happens it's like you sort of get addicted to that feeling and I and I really did get addicted to that. That was

是的。所以你知道當那發生時，你有點對那種感覺上癮，而且我真的對那上癮了。那就是

>> the thing that I just wanted to do for as long as I could possibly do it.

我想盡可能長時間做的事情。

>> I love that. And you also met Holly at Cosmo. Is that where your guys's story started?

我喜歡那個。而且你也是在Cosmo認識Holly的。那是你們的故事開始的地方嗎？

>> And then for context, that is our mutual friend who introduced us to Leah.

然後作為背景，那是我們共同的朋友，她把我們介紹給了Leah。

>> Yes. And so Holly came into my life. I think maybe it was 2012 or 13. Joanna Kohl's was the editor-in chief of Cosmo at the time. She had

是的。所以Holly進入了我的生活。我想可能是2012或13年。當時Joanna Kohl's是Cosmo的主編。她

tapped Holly, who I mean, Holly has an incredible career. She was in movies.

找了Holly，我的意思是，Holly有一個令人難以置信的職業。她拍過電影。

She did so many things. And at the time, I think she was in the corporate side of Hurst and Joanna tapped her to be really her chief of staff and also um head up

她做了很多事情。當時，我想她在Hurst的公司方面，Joanna找她來真正做她的幕僚長，也是負責

all of the comms for the brand. And at the time the brand was changing so much um because Joanna just had a totally different point of view that she wanted

品牌所有公關的人。當時品牌變化很大，嗯，因為Joanna只是有一個完全不同的觀點，她想

just with a megaphone out to the ad community, out to the media uh market.

用擴音器對外傳達給廣告社區，對外傳達給媒體市場。

And so um Holly was tapped to do that and we just really hit it off. in the very beginning and now I mean we are we call each other twin because we're just like

所以，嗯Holly被找來做那個，我們一開始就真的很合得來。而且現在我的意思是我們叫彼此雙胞胎，因為我們就像是

we just feel like we're sisters in a lot of ways and that's the I think a really special thing that happens over time when you work with women especially is

我們就是感覺我們在很多方面像是姐妹，那是我認為隨著時間推移當你和女性一起工作時會發生的真正特別的事情，

you become you sort of transcend just as work partners and you become like life partners in a lot of ways.

你在某種程度上超越了只是工作夥伴，你變成了像是在很多方面的人生夥伴。

>> We kind of want to dig into that a little bit more. We shout out to Holly.

我們有點想多聊聊那個。我們要感謝Holly。

Thank you so much for introducing us to Leah. Um but I mean you've said previously like work wives can solve like world peace create world peace.

非常感謝你把我們介紹給Leah。嗯但我的意思是你之前說過工作閨蜜可以解決像是創造世界和平。

>> I say that all the time. It's true.

我一直這樣說。這是真的。

>> Yeah. I mean work wives and the power of female friendship is like so important for our career if you can find a work wife and also just like as career blends

是的。我的意思是，工作閨蜜和女性友誼的力量對我們的職業來說是如此重要，如果你能找到一個工作閨蜜，而且就像職業融入

into life. Like can you talk a little bit more about just like the importance of having a work wife? Yeah. I I mean, I think first of all, these are people

生活。你能多談談擁有工作閨蜜的重要性嗎？是的。我是說，我認為首先，這些人

that men or women, you're spending the bulk of your day, the bulk of your life with your work family.

是男人或女人，你大部分的一天、大部分的生活都在跟你的工作家庭在一起。

>> Um, some families are super dysfunctional and um making those relationships at work even more important because at that point then they turn into like your survival mechanism, right? like when you're

嗯，有些家庭超級功能失調，而且嗯讓這些工作關係變得更加重要，因為那時候它們就變成了你的生存機制，對吧？像是當你

working at a place that is I mean every place has >> tough times and but when you're working at a place that over time becomes a little more tricky to manage um where

在一個，我的意思是每個地方都有艱難的時候，但當你在一個隨著時間變得有點難以管理的地方工作，嗯那裡

it's sort of infringing on your life in some way where it's harder to create a boundary whatever >> your mental health >> your mental health like that is where you need

有點侵犯你的生活，在某種程度上更難創造界限，無論什麼，你的心理健康，你的心理健康，像是那是你需要

>> um I think women in particular to confide in to be able to cry with to be able to just vent and be real because if you're not able to have that outlet, how

嗯我認為特別是女性來傾訴，能夠一起哭，能夠只是發洩和真實，因為如果你不能有那個出口，你

do you sort of get through those moments together? It's harder. I mean, it's >> I think it was for a long time people just expected that you like stiff upper

怎麼一起度過那些時刻？這更難。我的意思是，這是，我認為很長一段時間人們只是期望你像是保持冷靜

lip. You were like, you know, I can that is not good for any of us. And I think having those people that you can be real with who you can trust with gh I'm

。你就像是，你知道的，我可以，那對我們任何人都不好。而且我認為有那些你可以對他們真實的人，你可以信任說「唉我

feeling this way right now. I'm so frustrated by, you know, my boss or whatever. It can help you just like flow into the next stage of less frustration.

現在這樣覺得。我對，你知道的，我的老闆或什麼的非常沮喪。」它可以幫助你流向下一個較少沮喪的階段。

>> Yeah. >> Instead of just holding it in and being like resentful and then just being like gh I can't work here anymore. Right.

是的。而不是只是憋在心裡然後就像是怨恨然後就像是唉我不能在這裡工作了。對。

Like >> yes >> it's never it's usually not ever resolved by like jumping the ship and going somewhere else. like you're going to find the same frustrations and is that

像是，是的，它通常不會通過跳槽去別的地方解決。像是你會發現同樣的沮喪，那是

>> I relate to this nerve so strongly because okay I've had the privilege of having I think like two work wives in my life and the first one of my best

我與這根神經如此強烈地產生共鳴，因為好，我有幸在我的生活中有我認為像是兩個工作閨蜜，第一個是我最好的

friends still to this day Maya we worked together at Zingga and there were times when both of us were like >> I'm about to rage quit right this second

朋友至今Maya，我們一起在Zynga工作，有些時候我們兩個都像是我現在就要暴怒辭職

and we would the two of us would go on a walk together and like the sole purpose of the walk was to vent to each other and and give each other like a three

然後我們兩個會一起去散步，而且散步的唯一目的就是互相發洩，然後給彼此一個三

minute long hug >> and it was like that.

分鐘長的擁抱，那就像是那樣。

>> That's so sweet. >> Yeah. Like she and she gives the best hugs. You know what I mean? Like just that kind of like connection and being

那太甜了。是的。像是她給的擁抱是最好的。你知道我的意思嗎？就像那種連結和能夠

able to like share with your work wife what's going on. They understand you like >> they have the special Yeah. A level of empathy.

像是跟你的工作閨蜜分享正在發生的事情。她們理解你像是她們有特別的是的。一種程度的同理心。

>> Yeah. It's just because only they know what you're feeling. My husband knows a lot about my business, knows a lot about the people I work with, but there are

是的。只是因為只有她們知道你的感受。我丈夫對我的工作知道很多，對我合作的人知道很多，但有

some weeks where, and I work at a very mentally sound company. Like, it's not toxic. It's not crazy. I mean, I've sort of found >> finally found a place that um appeals to

些星期，而且我在一個心理健康的公司工作。像是，它不是有毒的。它不是瘋狂的。我的意思是，我有點終於找到了一個嗯吸引

me in that way and and is is good for my mental health in a lot of ways, but there are just weeks that are really really hard. And if I take that home to

我這方面的地方，而且對我的心理健康在很多方面都是好的，但有些星期真的真的很難。而且如果我把那帶回家給

my husband, he gets it, but he doesn't get it. Like my girls at work get it. Like >> Holly in it with you.

我丈夫，他理解，但他不是真的理解。像是我工作上的女生們理解。像是Holly跟你一起。

>> My friend Meredith, my friend Melissa, my friend Joe, like we are in it together. Now we've also every single one of those people minus one. We've worked we've worked together since

我的朋友Meredith，我的朋友Melissa，我的朋友Joe，像是我們一起在裡面。現在我們也是每一個那些人減去一個。我們一起工作我們一起工作從

Cosmo. So, we've all like >> incredible >> moved together and like now have this like long decadesl long relationship. It >> It's amazing because you already know what the other person is thinking. You

Cosmo開始。所以，我們都像是一起搬了，現在有這種像是長達數十年的關係。它很神奇，因為你已經知道對方在想什麼。你

can like you speak shortorthhand. I'm sure for the people around us who don't have that. They're like, "You guys are crazy. Can you fill us in on what's going on?" Um, but you

可以像是你們說的是簡稱。我確定對我們週圍沒有那種關係的人來說。他們會說，「你們瘋了。你們能告訴我們發生了什麼嗎？」嗯，但你

do there are advantages to to having those like very long-term friendships.

確實有那種非常長期友誼的優勢。

Um, and they really are like therapists in your life that can get you through moments and get you to the other side.

嗯，而且她們真的像是你生活中的治療師，可以幫助你度過那些時刻，讓你到達另一邊。

So that, you know, I joke sometimes with my therapist like, "Oh my god, I'm having one of these weeks where I'm like, I'm going to hit the eject button

所以，你知道的，我有時候跟我的治療師開玩笑說，「喔天哪，我這星期過得很糟，我要按彈射按鈕

and that's it." Right? Like I just got to go. And she's like, >> you like go take a walk with a friend, go take a three minute hug. Like those

就這樣。」對吧？像是我就是要走了。然後她說，「你像是去跟朋友散個步，去一個三分鐘的擁抱。」像是那些

moments are actually really crucial. And then the other thing that I think you can do with women that is a little harder to do with men, maybe impossible to do with most men,

時刻其實真的很關鍵。然後另一件我認為你可以跟女性做的，跟男性有點難做的，也許對大多數男性來說不可能做到的，

>> is that you can be grateful with your whole heart to those women.

是你可以全心全意地對那些女性感恩。

>> Like, >> yeah, >> I can't tell you how many times a week I'm texting or slacking or just in person being like, >> "I love you so much. Like, thank you so

像是，是的，我無法告訴你我每週多少次在發訊息或Slack或只是當面說，「我好愛你。像是，非常

much for being in this with me." Yeah.

感謝你跟我一起在這裡面。」是的。

>> Like, you can't do that to a guy for the most part. I mean, maybe some guys, but like not really. And so these are people

像是，你不能對一個男生這樣做，大部分時候。我的意思是，也許一些男生，但像是不是真的。所以這些是

who like you can be fully open with and fully grateful to which it's a different way of leading. It's a different way of walking together. It's just a different way to trust each other.

你可以完全敞開心扉和完全感恩的人，這是一種不同的領導方式。這是一種不同的一起行走的方式。這只是一種不同的信任彼此的方式。

>> And that is really important. I think >> yeah so well said.

而且那真的很重要。我認為，是的，說得太好了。

>> In some ways it really transcends just the career or like professional aspect too when you really trust someone that you've been working with for like a

在某些方面，它真的超越了職業或像是專業方面，當你真的信任一個你已經共事了像是

decade. It's just like we not only know each other in the professional context, but you've been with me through a lot of personal milestones, too.

十年的人。這就像是我們不只是在專業背景下認識彼此，你也陪我經歷了很多個人里程碑。

>> Yes. And you can be truthful with that person. I mean, there are thing we're going through a really big project right now and like I might disagree with the

是的。而且你可以對那個人誠實。我的意思是，有些事我們正在經歷一個真的很大的項目現在，像是我可能不同意

press plan or I might disagree with the way the press release was written or like whatever it is and it's easier to just say like I love you so much, but

公關計劃或我可能不同意新聞稿的寫法或像是任何東西，而且更容易說「我好愛你，但

like there's just this one thing that I really think we have to just sit on for a minute. It comes from a it's a different way of approaching it than

像是有這麼一件事我真的認為我們必須坐下來想一想。」它來自一種不同的方式，比

someone being like gh that's terrible like go change it and it doesn't make that person want to be on your team or like get to a middle ground. And so

某人說「唉那太可怕了，去改掉它」，那不會讓那個人想加入你的團隊或像是找到一個中間立場。所以

there are huge advantages I think to having the work wife relationship. And then even the people who aren't your maybe your wife but like in it with you,

有工作閨蜜關係有很大的優勢。然後甚至那些可能不是你的閨蜜但像是跟你在一起的人，

they see that type of leadership, they respect that type of leadership. You trickle that down in some way and it just makes for a much more collaborative environment. Yeah, that's a great piece

她們看到那種領導方式，她們尊重那種領導方式。你把它傳遞下去，在某種程度上它只是創造了一個更協作的環境。是的，那是一條很好的

of like wisdom. >> It's just different. I mean, it's it's a different it just feels like it's a different vibe now than it was even 10 years ago. Like where sometimes women I

智慧。它只是不同。我的意思是，它就是它只是感覺像是它現在是一個不同的氛圍，比甚至10年前。像是有時候女性我

think in that time period they had they felt like they had to almost like be like men in a way. Like they had to feel like be tough. They had to, you know,

認為在那個時期她們感覺她們必須幾乎像是像男人一樣。像是她們必須感覺像是堅強。她們必須，你知道的，

put out like a >> I don't know if the aggression is the word, but it's like just some type of like like alphess. And you can have

展現出像是，我不知道攻擊性是不是那個詞，但它就像是某種像是像是alpha。而且你可以有

that, but you can also have it in a nice way. And I think it makes for a much better environment for your team >> and more authentic environment to your own leadership style.

那個，但你也可以用一種好的方式擁有它。而且我認為它為你的團隊創造了一個更好的環境，而且是對你自己的領導風格更真實的環境。

>> There's a different way of be it's there's a difference between being direct with feedback or direct with request or something than it is to be like have an alphaness undertone to it

有一種不同的方式來。直接給出反饋或直接提出要求，跟有一種alpha的底色是不同的

that feels like >> totally I don't know just it's a it's a there's a different energy now that I think people expect or want.

那感覺像是，完全不同，我不知道只是它是一種，它是一種，現在有一種不同的能量，我認為人們期待或想要。

>> Yeah. Another one of the things you said to us is that your life motto is just say yes.

是的。你跟我們說的另一件事是你的人生座右銘是「只管說是」。

>> So what is like one of the things that you you kind of like took that approach to and you were like I'm just going to say yes and and then you did something

所以什麼是像是你有點採取那種方式的一件事，你就像是我要說是，然後你做了一些

that like kind of like changed the course of your your life or your career.

像是有點改變了你的生活或你的職業軌跡的事情。

>> Yeah. So, I guess for better or worse, just say yes. Because when you say yes, a lot of things, a lot of opportunities can come your way, but it's a it's a lot

是的。所以，我想不管好壞，只管說是。因為當你說是時，很多事情，很多機會可以來到你面前，但它是一個

maybe on the to-do list sometimes. Um, so I think two things. One, that advice came to me from an old boss who um I decided to take a break with my husband.

可能有時候待辦清單上有很多。嗯，所以我認為兩件事。一個，那個建議是我從一個前老闆那裡聽來的，她嗯我決定跟我丈夫休息一下。

We had been together for four years. He was many years younger than me. He still is. It's not like he morphed into an older person. Um, but we

我們在一起四年了。他比我年輕很多歲。他現在還是。他並沒有變成一個老人。嗯，但我們

were five years apart and I had turned 30 and I was like, "Where is this going?" Like, "I need" and it's a sort of such a cliche moment to have a

差五歲，我已經30歲了，我就像是，「這要往哪裡走？」像是，「我需要」而且這是一種如此陳詞濫調的時刻，有一個

milestone like that. And and we broke up and my boss at the time was like, "This is your moment. Like, just say yes to everything." I think for her it was more

這樣的里程碑。然後我們分手了，我當時的老闆說，「這是你的時刻。像是，對一切說是。」我認為對她來說這更多是

of like a romantic thing, like say yes to every date, say yes to every whatever. Um, I just took it then to mean, you know, like when you say yes to

像是浪漫的事情，像是對每個約會說是，對每個什麼都說是。嗯，我就是把它理解為，你知道的，像是當你對

things, you don't know where they're going to lead. I mean, going back to the romantic piece of it, like I met my husband at a Halloween party where I

事情說是時，你不知道它們會通向哪裡。我的意思是，回到浪漫的部分，像是我在一個萬聖節派對上遇到了我丈夫，我

wasn't even going to go and I said yes to my best friend from college who took me to this party and semi- knew my husband and that's how I met him. So, I

甚至不打算去的，然後我對我大學最好的朋友說是，她帶我去了這個派對，她有點認識我丈夫，那就是我怎麼遇到他的。所以，我

look back on a moment like that thinking, well, I may never have met him if I didn't say yes to that moment. And I was not feeling particularly happy to

回顧那個時刻想，嗯，如果我沒有對那個時刻說是，我可能永遠不會遇到他。而且我並不是特別開心

go to this party. I was exhausted and tired and I really just wanted to stay home in pajamas.

要去這個派對。我很累很疲憊，我真的只想穿著睡衣待在家裡。

>> But I said yes. Right. So there is something that happens sometimes where you like meet somebody random that can potentially change your future in some way, but you don't actually get to

但我說是了。對。所以有些事情有時候會發生，你像是遇到某個隨機的人，他可能會以某種方式改變你的未來，但你實際上不會

experience that if you're not putting yourself out there in some way. Now sometimes you you can't say yes to everything and you have to be choosy but there is a habit that sometimes can

體驗那個如果你沒有以某種方式把自己放出去的話。現在有時候你不能對一切說是，你必須選擇，但有一種習慣有時候可以

happen where you're saying no so much that you're not going anywhere and you're not meeting new people and you're not that's where that creativity comes into play. That's where those serendipitous moments happen. Totally.

發生，你說不這麼多，你哪裡都不去，你沒有遇到新的人，你沒有，那就是創造力發揮作用的地方。那就是那些偶然的時刻發生的地方。完全。

>> And if you don't have them or put yourself out there to say yes to then you don't have the ability to make that like magical moment happen. And there

而且如果你沒有它們或沒有把自己放出去對它們說是，那你就沒有能力讓那種神奇的時刻發生。而且

have been multiple moments in my life that were changed with that like serendipitous energy to just like saying yes from the first time that I put my

我生命中有很多時刻是被那種偶然的能量改變的，只是說是，從第一次我

resume in for my first job where like I had no business getting that job on paper, but I just like said yes and threw it into a folder that went to

投我的簡歷到我的第一份工作，像是我在紙面上根本沒有資格得到那份工作，但我只是說是然後把它扔進了一個文件夾，送到了

somebody who ended up hiring me. >> Yeah.

一個最終僱用我的人那裡。是的。

um meeting my husband like one the probably the most impactful say yes moment was when I got to my current company. I had gone there to start the beauty and style vertical because they

嗯遇到我丈夫，像是可能最有影響力的說是時刻是當我到現在的公司。我去那裡開始美容和風格垂直領域，因為他們

had no beauty or style brands. They had bought Birdie. They had bought brides and they needed somebody to run it. I went there great. Like I was learning

沒有美容或風格品牌。他們買了Birdie。他們買了Brides，他們需要有人來經營。我去那裡很好。像是我正在

digital media for the first time. I was bringing something to them that they didn't actually have which was magazine chops and sort of media chops. Yeah.

第一次學習數位媒體。我帶給他們一些他們實際上沒有的東西，那就是雜誌的能力和某種媒體的能力。是的。

>> And then I did that for three years. And then one day my boss pulled me in his office and he said, um, you know, we bought this, we we acquired Meredith

然後我做了三年。然後有一天我的老闆把我叫進他的辦公室，他說，嗯，你知道的，我們買了這個，我們收購了Meredith

Corp, which had all of these like incredible brands, People EW, InStyle, Better Homes and Gardens, Food and Wine, Real Simple. And he was like, "We want you to run the entertainment group." And

公司，它有所有這些像是令人難以置信的品牌，People、EW、InStyle、Better Homes and Gardens、Food and Wine、Real Simple。他說，「我們想讓你經營娛樂集團。」然後

I was like, "No." And he's like, "Why?" I'm like, "Because I love beauty. I love style. Like this is what I've done my whole life. Like I I don't

我說，「不。」然後他說，「為什麼？」我說，「因為我愛美容。我愛風格。像是這是我一輩子都在做的事情。像是我不

want to leave this." He's like, "Just sleep on it." And I did. And I woke up the next day like, "What am I thinking?" Like my whole mantra is like, "Say yes."

想離開這個。」他說，「睡一覺再想想。」我做了。第二天早上我醒來說，「我在想什麼？」像是我的整個座右銘是「說是」。

Like, "What? Why would I not do this?" And I did do it. And it changed my whole life. Learning a whole new business, learning how the two businesses can

像是，「什麼？我為什麼不這樣做？」我做了。它改變了我的整個生活。學習一個全新的業務，學習兩個業務如何

intersect. I eventually brought the two groups together. But I would never have had this incredibly rich experience of running people in EW and people in Espanol without just saying I'm going to

交叉。我最終把兩個集團合併在一起。但如果不是只是說我要去

try it and you know what if I don't succeed I'll go back to beauty or like whatever will happen from it but if I could succeed how amazing could it be to

試試，你知道的，如果我不成功，我會回去做美容，或者無論什麼會發生，但如果我能成功，學習所有這些新東西會有多棒

learn all these new things and so that is trying really hard to just really be brave trying it's so scary >> getting out of the comfort zone I mean I

所以那是真的很努力地嘗試，真的很勇敢地嘗試，這太可怕了，走出舒適區，我的意思是我

on beauty for 20 some years. >> Yeah.

做美容做了20多年。是的。

>> And I never I mean I obviously beauty intersects with the entertainment world in a lot of ways and celebrities, but that's a whole other animal on its own.

而且我從來沒有，我的意思是我顯然美容在很多方面跟娛樂世界和名人交叉，但那本身是完全另一種動物。

And to sort of learn that from the ground up and >> make new relationships there and understand that business, it was really hard. It's the best decision I ever

然後從基礎開始學習那個，跟建立新的關係，理解那個業務，真的很難。這是我做過的最好的決定。

made. And obviously I credit that to my boss even being able to see that I could possibly do that. I don't know if I would have raised my I know I wouldn't

顯然我感謝我的老闆甚至能夠看到我可能能做那個。我不知道我會不會自己舉手。我知道我不會

have raised my hand for it. So sometimes you know somebody sees something else for you.

舉手。所以有時候你知道有人為你看到其他東西。

>> And when that happens I think you really have to trust it. Like if somebody is seeing something in me that I'm not seeing in myself

而且當那發生時，我認為你真的必須信任它。像是如果有人看到我身上我自己沒有看到的東西

>> got to try it, right? Like I have to at least deserves a moment of just to try.

得試試，對吧？像是我至少得給它一個嘗試的時刻。

>> Yeah. I mean this is super inspiring for for me for us because I feel like we are at the moment now where you were when the your boss was like why don't you

是的。我的意思是這對我對我們來說超級鼓舞人心，因為我覺得我們現在在你老闆說你為什麼不

take on entertainment because like for the two of us doing this whole startup the whole podcast journey sisters matcha like everything is new to us because we come from the tech world like we've

接手娛樂的那個時刻，因為像是對我們兩個做這整個創業、整個播客旅程、Sisters Matcha，像是一切對我們來說都是新的，因為我們來自科技世界，像是我們

never like ever built something that you can hold in your hand that's not in an app on a screen like we've never >> been in front of cameras like this

從來沒有建造過你可以拿在手裡的東西，不是在屏幕上的應用程式，像是我們從來沒有在像這樣的鏡頭前

before so I don't know that's really inspiring to see like where you are today versus like where you started from being like a total newbie and taking on an entirely new industry.

所以我不知道那真的很鼓舞人心，看到你今天在哪裡，相比你從哪裡開始，作為一個完全的新手接手一個全新的行業。

>> Totally. >> Yeah. >> And I don't know. I mean, there's there's something about creating something from the ground up. I mean, look at this thing. This came from your

完全。是的。是的。而且我不知道。我的意思是，從頭開始創造東西有些什麼。我的意思是，看看這個東西。這是從你的

>> brain, right? Like this >> and our hearts >> and now you can consume it, you know, and you can touch it and see it and read it. And it's unbelievable what happens

大腦出來的，對吧？像是這個，然後我們的心，現在你可以消費它，你知道的，你可以觸摸它看到它讀它。而且當

when you have something in your brain. I mean sometimes I mean I know that the best ideas I've ever had the things I look back on and I remember like I'm so

你腦子裡有東西時會發生令人難以置信的事。我的意思是有時候我的意思是我知道我有過的最好的想法，我回顧的東西，我記得像是我

proud of that came from I always say it came from either one of two places. One, I was in the shower washing my hair.

為那個如此驕傲，來自我總是說它來自兩個地方之一。一個，我在洗澡洗頭髮。

Shower thought. Why is there something so beautiful about shower? Like I don't know what >> passionate about shower.

洗澡想法。為什麼洗澡有些這麼美好的東西？像是我不知道什麼，對洗澡很熱情。

>> Wait, I talk about this all the time.

等等，我一直在談這個。

It's like the water. It's the folk like I don't even has to be a scientific thing. Somebody needs to spend something.

是水。是專注，像是我甚至，必須是科學的東西。有人需要花些時間。

>> Somebody needs to do a study. >> Yes. Because there is something. It's either happened in the shower or it happens either the moment like the 10 minutes before falling asleep or the 10

有人需要做一個研究。是的。因為有些什麼。它要麼發生在洗澡裡，要麼發生在入睡前的10分鐘或

minutes where I'm like kind of waking up and just sort of thinking.

有點醒來只是在想的10分鐘。

Maybe it's because those are places where or moments where you don't have this incoming inputs all the time. You're you're separated. You're sort of >> you're kind of like in limbo or like

也許是因為那些是你沒有一直有輸入進來的地方或時刻。你是分開的。你有點在中間或像是

your brain is it's like things are working in the background and you're not like using probably like I don't know the creative aspect of your brain just yet. You're like just waking up or

你的大腦是，事情在後臺運行，你還沒有像是用，我不知道，你大腦的創意方面。你像是剛醒來或

falling asleep. But don't you wonder how many people in the world have a genius idea in that moment and they don't do anything about it? And what did you guys

入睡。但你不好奇世界上有多少人在那個時刻有一個天才的想法，他們什麼都沒做？而你們

do? You had this idea. You went through all the steps to like make this a thing.

做了什麼？你們有這個想法。你們經歷了所有的步驟來把這變成一個東西。

And then now you have this thing. So now you're like, "Oo, we did it once. Like what's next?" Like you, right? If you do it once, you at least have a playbook of

現在你們有了這個東西。所以現在你們像是，「喔，我們做了一次。像是接下來是什麼？」像是你，對吧？如果你做了一次，你至少有一個

sorts that can will be tweaked a million different ways. it you have also you have the confidence that like you went through it start to finish

某種劇本，會被以一百萬種不同的方式調整。它，你也有信心，像是你從頭到尾經歷了它

>> and that's the secret to it all is like >> you got to just try it and you have to figure out your own playbook and then

那就是一切的秘密，像是你只需要試試，你必須找出你自己的劇本，然後

you'll have something to work off of in the future. Your story before like I I feel like so many elements resonate with me. I think firstly like having someone

你未來就有東西可以依據了。你之前的故事，像是我覺得這麼多元素跟我產生共鳴。我認為首先像是有某人

in your corner who like really deeply believes in you and like sees the potential before you can even like see it or feel it in yourself is really important. And then also like

在你身邊真的深深相信你，像是在你自己甚至能看到或感受到之前就看到了潛力，真的很重要。然後也像是

>> that paired with kind of the mindset you were talking about like instead of saying like what's the worst that can happen it's like what's the best that

那跟你談到的心態配對，像是不是說「最壞會發生什麼」，而是像是「最好

can happen even if I fail or you know it doesn't go my way like something good will come out of it. Like I think the mindset is also super important.

會發生什麼」，即使我失敗了或你知道的它沒有按我的方式走，像是會有好的東西出來的。像是我認為心態也超級重要。

>> Yeah. Uh, and there's also a little bit of beauty in um, being naive.

是的。呃，而且保持天真也有一點美好。

>> Like I don't think I had any idea what it was going to take to go through those moments that I went through that I had to learn from the ground up or build

像是我不認為我有任何想法需要經歷那些我經歷過的時刻，我必須從頭學習或從頭

from the ground up. Um, and there was a couple of those moments. I mean, my biggest one was when I switched from print media to digital media. I mean, I

建設。嗯，有幾個那樣的時刻。我的意思是，我最大的一次是當我從印刷媒體轉到數位媒體。我的意思是，我

felt as though I went through some level of pro postgrad work on the job because there's moments where people are like saying these words, you have no idea what they mean. And

感覺好像我在工作中經歷了某種程度的研究生工作，因為有些時刻人們在說這些詞，你不知道它們是什麼意思。而且

>> I'm sending myself emails to be like, Google this later, like research this later, have no idea what this thing is.

我給自己發電子郵件說，稍後Google這個，稍後研究這個，不知道這是什麼東西。

And so, you're sort of teaching yourself in the moment and you're relying on people to not think you're totally stupid. And, you know, a >> a hire that shouldn't have been made.

所以，你有點在當下教自己，你依靠人們不認為你完全愚蠢。而且，你知道的，一個不應該被僱用的人。

You trust them. you like learn from them and I did have that opportunity. I don't know if I would have had that opportunity at any other company. There

你信任他們。你像是向他們學習，我確實有那個機會。我不知道我在任何其他公司會不會有那個機會。有

was just something special about uh the leadership at the time. I mean it still is the same leadership but the size of the company, the kind of like familialness that was there that really

一些關於嗯當時領導層的特別之處。我的意思是現在仍然是同樣的領導層，但公司的規模，那種像是家庭式的感覺真的

helped me succeed in that area. And then other moments where you're just a little naive and you have to rely on everybody around you to get you through it. We are

幫助我在那個領域取得成功。然後其他時刻你只是有點天真，你必須依靠你週圍的每個人來幫你度過。我們

building an app right now and we're about to launch it. And I knew nothing about apps. A lot of us didn't at the company, but we just figured it out. And

正在建立一個應用程式，我們即將發布。而且我對應用程式一無所知。公司裡很多人都不知道，但我們就是想出來了。而且

you you can really figure it out if you have some really smart people in the room and that you can sort of give up control to spread that spread that

你真的可以想出來，如果你在房間裡有一些真的很聰明的人，你可以放棄控制，分散那種

empowerment around and you're all kind of doing the thing that you're best at and you work the kinks out in the in in the moment.

授權，你們都在做你們最擅長的事情，在當下解決問題。

>> Yeah. I mean it is such a blessing to like be in a really healthy workplace where you not only trust the people on a personal like deep personal level but

是的。我的意思是在一個真的很健康的職場是如此的幸運，你不只是在個人的像是深層個人層面信任那些人，

like you can like you said speak shorthand with them and I feel really lucky to be working with Jean now cuz there's like so many obviously 29 years of trust for me

像是你可以像你說的跟他們說簡稱，而且我覺得現在能跟Jean一起工作真的很幸運，因為顯然有29年的信任對我來說

>> with Jean the place where I want to go next is uh kind of the opposite of that in in terms of like workplace politics could you talk a little bit more about like

跟Jean。我想去的下一個地方是嗯那的相反，在像是職場政治方面，你能多談談

how to navigate workplace politics maybe if it's something that people are not super familiar with like do you have any tips for that >> it's a tough one stories >> so many war stories

如何駕馭職場政治嗎？也許如果這是人們不太熟悉的東西，像是你有任何建議嗎？這是一個困難的，故事，這麼多戰爭故事

>> so many I mean >> which one to talk about >> it's like >> some of them some of it is when you are just starting out you're developing a

這麼多，我的意思是，談哪一個，這就像是，有些是有時候你剛開始的時候你在

thick skin in the course of the first few years and that is hard like when you're raw I mean sometimes I wish I could go back to 22-year-old Leah who

頭幾年培養厚臉皮，那很難，像是當你還很稚嫩的時候，我的意思是有時候我希望我能回到22歲的Leah，她

had like, you know, who didn't have like this much more skin than she has now and and remember what that was like because >> the vulnerability and sort of the the

有像是，你知道的，還沒有像她現在這麼多的皮，然後記住那是什麼感覺，因為脆弱和某種

rawness of being in something new without I mean the publishing industry particularly when I entered it was cutthroat like it was just something I had never experienced before and that

在新事物中的稚嫩，我的意思是出版業特別是當我進入時是競爭激烈的，像是那是我從來沒有經歷過的，那

level of just okay this person looked at me weird. Now I'm going down a spiral.

種只是好這個人奇怪地看了我一眼。現在我要陷入螺鏇。

Like my boss yelled at me. Like and you're just you just go through that for so many years and you're like gh okay now like on to the next thing.

像是我的老闆對我吼了。像是你就是經歷那個這麼多年，你就像是唉好吧，現在像是，到下一件事。

>> Then as you start to become middle management start to become more moving upward. You are in a position where you're policing a lot of what's coming down to you >> from your team

然後當你開始成為中層管理，開始成為更多往上走。你處於一個位置，你在管理很多從你的團隊傳下來的東西

>> and you're policing a lot of what's coming up to you from the people above you. And you are holding this load in a lot of ways that it's really hard

而且你在管理很多從你上面的人傳上來的東西。而且你在某些方面承擔著這個負擔，這真的很難

because you have to please both sides. It's like the jelly and the sandwich and you have to try to please both sides.

因為你必須讓雙方都滿意。這就像是三明治裡的果醬，你必須試著讓雙方都滿意。

That's workplace politics like at >> that's the start of it I think.

那就是職場政治像是，那就是它的開始我認為。

>> Um and when do you side with your team versus your boss and how do you influence one or the other or both? And though that is like the the learning how

嗯而且你什麼時候站在你的團隊那邊，相對於你的老闆，你怎麼影響一方或另一方或雙方？而且那是像是學習如何

to lead with influence versus force. That is a massive thing that I had to learn in a lot of hard ways. Sometimes it's not fair. Like there are things

用影響力而不是強制來領導。那是一個我必須以很多困難的方式學習的巨大事情。有時候這不公平。像是有些

that you're being asked to do as a middle manager from your boss. And you think they're going to protect you. You think they're going to be there forever

事情你作為中層經理被老闆要求做的。而且你以為他們會保護你。你以為他們會永遠在

and one day you wake up and they're not.

然後有一天你醒來他們不在了。

and you've just had to do a lot of dirty work for a long period of time and now they're gone and you're like, who's going to take care of me now? Right?

而且你剛剛不得不做了很長一段時間的髒活，現在他們走了，你就像是，現在誰會照顧我？對吧？

It's very scary and and there was a moment that I went through that in um at my job at Cosmo and you know, I was left

這非常可怕，而且有一個時刻我在嗯我在Cosmo的工作經歷了那個，你知道的，我被

in a different world. I was left in a with new leadership that I didn't know, I didn't really have a relationship with. 24 hours before that I had a

留在一個不同的世界。我被留下來面對我不認識、我真的沒有關係的新領導。24小時前我有

direct line to um the chief content officer, right? Like and that is like that rocks your world. Like that is like really really scary. It turned out that

直接聯繫到嗯首席內容官，對吧？像是那就像是那震撼了你的世界。像是那真的真的很可怕。結果是

it was just not the place for me anymore because >> I didn't necessarily believe in the in the direction the company was moving in and it was just time for me to find

那只是不再是我的地方了，因為我不一定相信公司前進的方向，是時候我去找

something new and and I am so grateful that I was given this this opportunity at my current company in that moment. If I had to tough it out for you know

新的東西了，而且我非常感激我在那個時刻得到了我現在公司的這個機會。如果我必須撐下去，你知道的

another like year or two. I probably could have just because I have I had the thick skin and I could probably figure out how to make it work in some way.

再一兩年。我可能可以，只是因為我有厚臉皮，我可能可以想出如何以某種方式讓它運作。

>> Yeah. >> But I pro I definitely wouldn't have been happy. And there there is a moment that happened for me and it probably was

是的。但我肯定不會開心。而且有一個時刻發生在我身上，可能是

when I had kids where I was just like I do have to feel um like there's something else here for me aside from just the paycheck. Mhm.

當我有孩子的時候，我就像是，我確實必須感覺嗯像是除了薪水之外還有其他東西在這裡給我。嗯。

>> I have to feel like I'm being respected, that I'm continuing to learn every day, that I feel like there's a path, a future path for me. I just there's