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This is 20s versus 30s. We're going to compare and contrast dating and career in our 20s versus our 30s. Talk about all the things we learned and the
這是 20 歲對比 30 歲。我們要比較對比 20 歲和 30 歲的約會和職業。談談我們學到的所有事情和
mistakes we wish we avoided. I'm Sheree and I'm 29. I'm Jean and I'm 36. And we're the Tiger Sisters.
我們希望避免的錯誤。我是 Sheree，我 29 歲。我是 Jean，我 36 歲。我們是 Tiger Sisters。
We've heard you guys and all of the questions that you've sent in and we've been able to address some of them in seasons three and seasons 4, but we
我們聽到了你們的問題，你們發來的所有問題，我們已經能夠在第三季和第四季解決其中一些，但我們
really wanted to make a special episode so that we could just super distill all of our main learnings into just one episode. I will be right back after this
真的想做一期特別的節目，這樣我們可以把所有主要的學習濃縮到一集裡。我在這個休息後馬上回來。
break. Hey guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on sistersmatcha.com. We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed ourselves.
嘿夥計們，快速休息讓你們知道我們現在在 sistersmatcha.com 有週邊商品了。我們有我們自己設計的衛衣和 T 恤。
Go check it out. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
去看看。請在 Spotify 和 Apple Podcasts 上給我們五星評價。
These ratings are so important for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters podcast. Thank you for your support. Okay, Sheree, why don't we start with the topic of dating? So, now
這些評價對 Tiger Sisters 播客的分發和生存非常重要。感謝你的支持。好的，Sheree，我們為什麼不從約會的話題開始？那麼，現在
that you're 29, what are some of the lessons that you've learned throughout your 20s and now that you're about to enter your 30s? Yeah, 29 is a weird age.
你 29 歲了，你在整個 20 多歲學到了什麼教訓，現在你即將進入 30 歲？是的，29 歲是一個奇怪的年齡。
I feel like I'm in a strange transitionary period, which means like I'm thinking about this a lot and how it affects my life. I think like the number one thing that I've learned throughout
我感覺我處於一個奇怪的過渡期，這意味著我想了很多這個以及它如何影響我的生活。我認為我在整個
my 20s about dating is not making it about the other person. Oh, yeah. I think like centering it more on myself is something I wish I had done and
20 多歲關於約會學到的第一件事是不要讓它圍繞另一個人。哦，是的。我認為更多地以自己為中心是我希望我做過的事情，
something I'm going to bring with me into my 30s. I totally thought you were going to say the opposite, but keep going. No, like I feel like in my 20s I
也是我要帶進 30 歲的東西。我完全以為你會說相反的話，但繼續說。不，我覺得在我 20 多歲的時候我
went into relationships, friendships too, with a very peopleleasing mindset.
進入關係，也包括友誼，帶著非常討好別人的心態。
And as a result, I would like maybe like discard or let go of pieces of myself that were really important that I shouldn't have let go of for and
結果，我可能會丟棄或放棄對我真正重要的自己的部分，我不應該為了
compromise. Maybe that's the word I'm looking for. Compromised what I was looking for or, you know, like bit my tongue. didn't say how I was actually feeling cuz I was afraid of how that
妥協而放棄。也許那就是我要找的詞。妥協了我在尋找的東西，或者，你知道，咬著舌頭。沒有說我實際的感受因為我害怕那會
would make the other person feel. So in a way I sacrificed I think my own identity for the sake of a relationship but it wasn't even like a relationship
讓對方有什麼感覺。所以在某種程度上我認為我為了一段關係犧牲了我自己的身份但這甚至不是
built on a strong foundation because I wasn't completely myself. Yeah. I think it's kind of it reminds me of scarcity mindset like you're afraid to lose the relationship that you in that you're in.
建立在堅實基礎上的關係因為我不完全是我自己。是的。我認為這讓我想起了稀缺心態，你害怕失去你正在進行的關係。
So you try to like tailor yourself and do things to like hold on to that relationship. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's also just like the question when
所以你試圖調整自己並做一些事情來抓住那段關係。是的，完全是。我是說，這也像是
you go into a job interview, not to make this about career so fast, like when you're going into a job interview, it's like, oh my gosh, I hope they'll like
當你去面試工作時的問題，不是要這麼快讓這變成關於職業的，當你去面試時，就像，哦天哪，我希望他們
me, but you're also interviewing the company, too. You're like, I hope I like them, but why don't I why didn't I bring that mindset? And I'm not blaming myself
喜歡我，但你也在面試公司。你會說，我希望我喜歡他們，但為什麼我沒有...我為什麼沒有帶著那個心態？我不是在責怪自己
or anything. I'm just like this is what I've learned. But like why didn't I bring that mindset into a relationship is as much as like I hope they like me.
或任何事。我只是像這是我學到的。但為什麼我沒有把那個心態帶進一段關係就像我希望他們喜歡我。
I'm like do I even like them? Yeah. I think it's because when you're younger most of the time you're less secure with yourself. Yeah. I think it's growing in
我像是我甚至喜歡他們嗎？是的。我認為這是因為當你更年輕時大多數時候你對自己不那麼有安全感。是的。我認為這是在
confidence, growing in you know self asssurance of who I am. And I mean just like growing of self in general like when I'm 22 the things that really
信心方面成長，在你知道我是誰的自我確信方面成長。我是說就像在自我方面的成長當我 22 歲時真正
define me are like my family experiences and like what I studied in school but since 22 to 29 I've had so many different experiences and I've put myself in positions to have these
定義我的是我的家庭經歷和我在學校學的東西但從 22 歲到 29 歲我有過很多不同的經歷，我把自己放在這些
experiences whether it's travel or friendship just like seeing more reading more going to concerts just like figuring out like more about myself and what I like such that like I'm so
經歷的位置，無論是旅行還是友誼，就像看更多讀更多去音樂會就像弄清楚更多關於我自己和我喜歡什麼這樣我是如此
excited and proud of who I am that like now going into my 30s like I want to double down on that as opposed to letting go of that. H very eloquent. Oh,
對我現在是誰更有信心。我想如果有一件事我會告訴年輕的 Sheree 那就是你真的需要找出你想要什麼。
thanks. I mean I have been thinking about this a lot. Um I think I mean one thing I wrote down um to make this like more tactical like one thing you can do
不是你的父母認為你應該想要什麼，不是你週圍的人想要什麼，而是你實際上想要什麼。
if you're also experiencing this too is that like whenever going into a date or a relationship like I try to now reframe it in my mind as like what am I learning
是的。因為那是當你得到你想要的東西時你會更快樂而不是別人告訴你要得到的東西。
from this experience as opposed to like oh my god it's a breakup and like being so sad which I definitely get that way but like kind of turning it into like
那麼你呢？現在你 36 歲了你對 20 歲和 30 歲約會有什麼看法？
okay that happened but what did I learn about myself and what I like and what I don't like and in that way it makes it a little less devastating. Yeah. I think
我認為我 20 多歲時學到的最大教訓是我不知道我想要什麼在一段關係中。
that's a good way to go through life in general is to just reframe everything as a learning experience. Mhm. Right. Cuz then you always gain something from it
我認為我對關係應該是什麼樣子有這些理想化的想法但它們不是基於我真正需要什麼。
no matter what. Like maybe in your mind you do feel like oh like I lost this relationship or I lost this job opportunity or you kind of reframe
我會約會那些在紙面上看起來很完美的人但我們沒有真正的連結。
you're like okay what did I actually learn? What did I gain from this? Um, instead I think that also just goes back to like how you said the scarcity versus
然後我會因為我投入了時間而留在這些關係中即使它們不滿足我。
abundance mindset. It's like super abundance mindset. Like what can I learn from this? And like there are other good things coming my way. It's funny. I thought you were going to say the
現在在我 30 多歲我更清楚我需要什麼。我知道我自己的價值觀是什麼。
opposite because I kind of have like a similar lesson, but I phrased it in a very different way. And I hear it.
我不願意為不適合我的人妥協。是的我認為這是關鍵區別。
Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, no, the way that I had phrased it, but it's sort of like has like a similar germ as yours. The way I said it is that it's actually not
我認為在你 20 多歲時你更願意妥協因為你認為你有時間或因為你不確定你想要什麼。
about you, and I know like you sort of said this phrase in in like earlier episodes. Actually, the way I'd say it is don't take it personally.
但在你 30 多歲你知道時間是有限的而且你更確定你需要什麼。
And in so many ways, like it's actually not about you. And like I can see how that can be concerning to people to sort of like desenter yourself from your own
完全是。讓我們換個話題談談職業。你關於 20 多歲職業學到了什麼？
like self-narrative, but instead I actually think in so many ways it is incredibly freeing. Like it is like think about like if you walk through life with that thought like really
哦這是一個好問題。我認為我 20 多歲時最大的錯誤是我太專注於取悅我的老闆。
deeply embedded in you and you're like it's not about me. Like think about how like free and light you'll be right and like not taking things personally. Yeah.
我會做任何事來得到認可即使這意味著犧牲我自己的幸福。
Exactly. Like if someone cuts you off on the highway, it's not about me. They're rushing because they have to get home to pick up their kids or like they really
我會說是的接受每一個專案即使我已經不堪重負。我會工作到很晚即使我不需要。
have to go to the bathroom. It's not about me. Um but in this instance, I think it's more so like if you go through a breakup or you feel like you
我認為這對我產生了影響。它導致了倦怠。它導致了怨恨。
were rejected or even like it applies to friendships, right? um or even careers like if you were rejected for something or something doesn't work out, it's not always on you. It's not about you
現在我明白設定界限的重要性。你不能總是說是的然後期望茁壯成長。
necessarily. That's something that honestly took me a really long time to learn. I think because the perspective that I came from was one being the eldest daughter and then two just being
是的我認為這是很多人在 20 多歲時學到的東西。這種想法是你必須證明自己。
like really type A and like always trying to be like controlling things around me and being a people pleaser and um also kind of being like sort of like
但有時候證明自己意味著以犧牲你的健康為代價。那是不可持續的。
parentified a little bit growing up and always trying to like make things good and make things right and like have things happen correctly for everyone and try to maximize everyone's well-being and happiness.
完全是。那你呢？你 20 多歲時對職業學到了什麼？
um perhaps at the expense of your own.
我認為我學到的最大的一課是網絡的重要性。不是以一種表面的方式而是以一種真實的方式。
Exactly. Yeah. And so I think like that was sort of the mindset that I grew up with and so I always felt like well there's always something I can do to
在我 20 多歲早期我認為如果我只是努力工作機會就會來找我。但那不是它的運作方式。
like fix the situation. like I always took on the responsibility and I sort of did make it about me and I did take things very personally whether it was
你必須為自己倡導。你必須讓人們知道你想要什麼。
you know like not getting the promotion that you thought you were going to get um and you like very much were told that you deserved and blah blah right like
你必須建立真誠地支持你的關係。
you have a story about that too right so it applies to I think both relationships and careers just I think just like sit with that and then try to pull it out
這改變了我的職業生涯。當我開始投資於關係時事情開始更快地發生。
sometimes if you're kind of feeling bad about something like try on that thought and be like it's not about me. Like don't take it personally. Like what are
是的我認為人們低估了這一點。你的網絡真的很重要。
ways that like put yourself in the other person's shoes and be like why would they have done that in a way like what is the reason they would have done that
這不僅僅是關於你認識誰而是關於誰認識你以及他們為你說話時會說什麼。
that has nothing to do with me at all? I think it's really interesting that your advice to say it's not about you and my advice is to say it is about me. So I'm
完全是。讓我們談談 20 歲和 30 歲的倦怠因為這是很多人問的事情。
not really sure what to make of that.
是的我認為在我 20 多歲時我不承認倦怠是真實的。我只是認為這是工作的一部分。
Like it is but it isn't about you. We literally gave sort of like the opposite. No, they're not exactly opposite. They're like kind of orthogonal. Like I still think they work
我會工作直到我筋疲力盡然後我會休息幾天然後再做一遍。這是一個不健康的循環。
together. They do work together because in in one complete phrase, sorry to interrupt you, but you could say like it is about me, but I don't take it personally when it's
現在在我 30 多歲我更加主動地預防倦怠。我意識到它正在發生的跡象。
not. It's about me or what? How did you say it like focus on myself or something? Focus on my needs. Center.
我休息不是因為我必須而是因為我選擇這樣做。這是一個大的心態轉變。
Yeah, I guess. Oh, you know what? I guess to say it eloquently, it would be like focus on what matters to you.
是的。我認為這是 20 多歲和 30 多歲之間的關鍵區別。在 20 多歲你是被動的。
Prioritize your needs so that when you give it your all and it doesn't work out, you know it's not about you because you've said everything that you've needed to say. You've voiced, you know,
在你 30 多歲你變得更主動。你為可能發生的事情做計劃。
all of your concerns. Does that make more sense? Yeah. Do you want to take a stab at it? Yeah. Or or like if it is about you, then like good. Like because
完全是。讓我們做一個迷你練習。想想你現在的工作或關係。
Yeah. Yeah, cuz then you're like, I was truly myself and it didn't work out and like I can't go through life pretending to be someone else or like changing
問自己我是因為真正想要而留下來還是因為害怕離開？
myself in a way that I'm not comfortable with. I mean, I've already tried that and it freaking sucks. I might drop.
如果是後者可能是時候做出改變了。
Yeah, we don't need to go there. I'm seeing a therapist to be. I was pretending to be a different version of myself in college and a people pleasing
這是一個好問題。我認為很多人不問自己這個問題。
person and I kind of like lost myself in that and in the relationship I was in and ultimately I discovered my own voice and what matters to me and I knew I
他們只是繼續做他們一直在做的事情因為這是舒適的。但舒適不總是讓你快樂的東西。
could no longer be in that relationship in college.
完全同意。讓我們談談孤獨因為這是另一個很多人在 20 多歲和 30 多歲都會掙紮的話題。
Remember that. Rude. She talks a lot. You talk a lot.
是的。我認為孤獨是我 20 多歲時沒有意識到但現在回顧起來真正影響我的事情。
You got a lot of stories. I can't keep track of all of them. Yeah. I think that's actually one of the most powerful lessons is that if nothing else, you are
我被很多人包圍。我有朋友我有同事。但我經常感到孤獨。
yourself, people respect that more and you can just like hold on to your self-respect. Yeah, I do think that that the people respecting you more thing is something that I've learned over time in
我認為這是因為我和人在一起但我沒有真正和他們連結。那些是表面的關係。
general. even just my own perception of people and like even if someone is like I don't know like the nerdiest most like a like socially awkward like whatever like weirdest person when they're
現在在我 30 多歲我更注重有更少但更深的關係。
genuinely themselves you just respect them so much more for it and you actually it's very endearing like you actually naturally like them better as opposed to if they were to try to be
質量重於數量。是的。我認為這是很多人隨著年齡增長學到的。
like I don't know some sort of like cool persona that is not actually true to who they are. Yeah, I totally feel that. And I feel like
你不需要一百個朋友。你只需要幾個真正理解你並支持你的人。
people can see I at least I can see through really clearly um for the most part when someone's pretending to be something that they're not. And I get pretty turned off by
完全是。讓我們談談自我價值因為這是貫穿約會和職業的一個主題。
that. Watch out. She can see through you. Be yourself. So, Jean, what is your take on dating in your 20s versus 30s since you've experienced both? Unlike
是的。我認為我 20 多歲時最大的掙紮是我不知道我的價值。
me. Yeah, dating in your 20s for me was all about having fun and like discovering yourself by like getting to know someone and learning about other people, learning about humanity, doing
我會接受低於我應得的因為我不認為我值得更好的。
things for the lore, for for the plot.
這體現在我的關係中我會和對我不好的人在一起。這體現在我的職業中我會接受低薪。
Yeah. For the future memoir. Yeah. I just I don't think I took dating in my 20s very seriously. I wasn't as I would say thoughtful as you are about it in
這需要時間來建立那個自我價值。但一旦你有了它就會改變一切。
your 20s. And like I definitely didn't have any sort of formula. I was more so just very open to all like different types of people, all different walks of
是的。我完全同意。我認為自我價值是你約會和職業成功的基礎。
life. I wasn't structured like you are now. Yeah. Well, I feel like I'm more structured now, but I remember like even when I was like 22, 23, 24, like I would
如果你不認為你值得好東西你就不會去追求它們。你會將就。
be devastated after a breakup and your advice to me would be like, don't take it so seriously. Oh. And like I couldn't not. You know what I mean? What did you
完全是。讓我們做另一個迷你練習。想想一件你想要但害怕追求的事情。
think when I said that to you? I Well, I was thinking like should have. No, I was like, you don't know what I'm feeling.
問自己是什麼阻礙了你。是恐懼嗎？是缺乏自信嗎？是別人告訴你的話嗎？
But I don't know. I just took things way more seriously than I think like now hearing that I can see why you're like, don't take it so seriously. Yeah. Well,
一旦你識別出障礙你就可以開始努力克服它。
but also like I mean I went through breakups for sure where I was like heartbroken and devastated, but they all sort of like passed so it was
這是一個很好的練習。我認為很多人甚至不知道是什麼阻礙了他們。
fine. Okay. And then now that I'm in my 30s, I do feel like I have some lessons that I'm taking with me from my 20s, especially coming out of several very
他們只是感覺被困住了但他們沒有找出原因。第一步是意識到。
serious relationships that I've had that are kind of like shaping the way I'm approaching dating now in my 30s. Okay.
完全是。讓我們談談一些最後的想法。
The first one is that I would say I would no longer date for potential.
我認為我對 20 多歲和 30 多歲的最大收穫是你的 20 多歲是探索的時候。
Yeah. I'm sorry, but all the Tik Toks they tell me now, all the advice is they don't date you don't date for potential is what they tell you. Yeah, that's kind
你是在弄清楚你是誰你想要什麼。犯錯是可以的。那是你學習的方式。
of a hard shift, especially when I feel like in the past I have dated people who have like incredibly high potential and I've seen, you know, some of the people that I've dated become
但你的 30 多歲是關於優化。你利用你學到的東西來做出更好的決定。
extremely like successful in different ways. I think what they say on TikTok is they're like, "Don't be Barbara the Builder." Yeah. And it's very easy, I
你不需要從頭開始因為你已經知道什麼對你有效什麼沒效。
think, for a lot of women to fall into that role naturally because women are taught to be very like nurturing and women are taught to help others society.
是的我喜歡那個框架。探索對比優化。這是思考人生不同階段的好方式。
So, it's very easy to feel I think especially if you're dating someone who you respect, if you respect them and you're like excited about them, you want to help them with like their career,
完全是。另一個收穫是不要害怕做出改變。
with their aspirations, with their dreams. and you kind of can see how you can like grow together. What I would do now is just take someone 100% at face
如果某件事不起作用你不必繼續做它。你可以改變方向你可以轉向你可以重新開始。
value. The cold hard facts of what we see in front of us. Yeah. And by face value, I mean who they are today and not just who and the definition of who they
這不是失敗。這是成長。是的。我認為這是一個很多人需要聽到的重要信息。
are today is not what they say, it's what they do. I don't know the example that came to my head that's like an unrelated anecdote is like let's say you
改變是可怕的但有時候這是你能為自己做的最好的事情。
see someone or you're with someone who's like yeah I love to do like marathons and I'm so into like Iron Mans and I'm just always working out all the time and
完全是。好的讓我們結束一下。如果你喜歡這一集請訂閱 Tiger Sisters 播客。
I'm just really into fitness but like physically they're very obese. So like would you trust them by what they say or would you actually look at like what you
在 Spotify 和 Apple Podcasts 上給我們五星評價。這對我們的分發真的很有幫助。
see in front of you their your their daily actions? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So like I say that as an extreme example because you can actually physically see in that example the contrast between
而且如果你知道有人會從這一集中受益請與他們分享。
what they say and what they actually do and how they like physically show up dayto day. But it's so it's also like so true when it comes to everything else.
分享就是關愛。感謝收聽。我們下次見。
Yeah. Right. If someone is like, "Yeah, like I can't wait to have a family and I can't wait to, you know, have children and get married and blah blah all this
拜拜。
stuff, but they're actually acting in a way that is counter to that." Then like you really have to just take them at what how they act, not what they say.
但他們的行為實際上是相反的。」那你就真的必須看他們怎麼做，而不是他們怎麼說。
Yeah. Someone that I had dated um over over the last two years, anyways, I won't get more detail than that. Um he was just like uh oh my gosh like I love
是啊。我過去兩年交往的某個人，總之，我就不說太多細節了。他就是那種「哦天啊，我超愛
you know going on road trips and you know I love going like let's go to this place. I was like oh hey yeah let's do it let's do it. Hello. He didn't know
公路旅行，你知道的，我喜歡去這些地方。」我說「好啊，走吧走吧。」結果他根本不會
how to drive. No it wasn't that. It was just that he like never planned anything even have a license. Even though he said I mean that was true. didn't have a US
開車。不是那樣。就是他從來不計劃任何事，連駕照都沒有。雖然他說的是真的。他沒有美國
license but like but I'm like okay so you love all you love going to these places or you want to go to these national parks but like
駕照，但我想說，好吧，你說你喜歡去這些地方，想去那些國家公園，但是
okay so planet you know you know what they say on Tik Tok I love the taste I love the taste the taste of nothing what I've never heard them say that on Tik Tok
好吧，你知道 TikTok 上怎麼說嗎？「我喜歡那個味道，我喜歡那個味道，什麼都沒有的味道。」我從沒在 TikTok 上聽過這個
okay three more lessons that I'll just go through really quickly much more quicker much more quickly than the last one is this one kind of like sounds like
好，還有三個教訓我快速帶過，比上一個快很多。這個聽起來有點負面，
a downer, but it's really just being realistic. And it's that love alone is not enough. Mhm. And I think I don't know maybe that sounds really obvious
但其實只是實際一點。就是光有愛是不夠的。我覺得這聽起來很明顯
but when you're sort of like in the throws of a relationship and you are you know getting all the serotonin and the oxytocin and everything and you're like
但當你深陷在一段感情裡，你知道的，獲得所有的血清素和催產素什麼的，然後你
deeply in love it can be very easy I think to think that like you can sort of overcome any obstacles because you are so in love with each other. If we are to
深深地愛著，我覺得很容易認為你可以克服任何障礙，因為你們太相愛了。如果我們要
have three children God willing they need to be supported. Love alone is not enough. Yeah. Otherwise, I would still be engaged or I'd be married at this point.
有三個孩子，願上帝保佑，他們需要被供養。光有愛是不夠的。是啊。否則我現在應該還訂著婚或已經結婚了。
Okay. Next one. When you marry someone or when you commit to someone for the long term as your partner, you are marrying not just that person, but you are marrying a lifestyle.
好。下一個。當你和某人結婚或長期承諾在一起時，你嫁的不只是那個人，你嫁的是一種生活方式。
I think that's something people don't really talk about. And their family.
我覺得這是大家不太談論的事。還有他們的家人。
Yes. Is that included in lifestyle? Yeah. Exactly. So like how do they interact with their family? Like how do they you know what do they do for their holidays? Like how do they structure
對。那包含在生活方式裡嗎？對，沒錯。所以像是他們怎麼和家人互動？他們假期都做什麼？他們怎麼安排
their years? How do they think about their like life planning? Like do they think five years in advance? Do they think 10 years in advance? Or do they
一整年？他們怎麼想自己的人生規劃？他們是想五年後？十年後？還是
just think about the day the dayto-day and just kind of like roll with things, right? Like that those are all components of lifestyle. M um not to mention like all the other aspects like
只想著每一天，隨遇而安，對吧？這些都是生活方式的組成部分。更不用說其他方面像是
you know politics, religion, um health, working out, socioeconomic class, like all of those things are components of a lifestyle and like very practically that is what you are opting into. That's not
你知道的，政治、宗教、健康、運動、社會經濟階層，所有這些都是生活方式的組成部分，而且非常實際地說，這就是你選擇進入的。這不是
very romantic. Yeah. And it's not meant to be. But it's just like the I guess the reality of it. I guess for me like I'm saying these things. I think because
很浪漫。是啊。這本來就不是要浪漫。但這就是現實。我想我說這些是因為
I am I've mentioned this before like inherently a very romantic person. So like I've had to like sort of come to these realizations and like teach myself the cold hard truth because I naturally
我之前提過，我本質上是個非常浪漫的人。所以我必須認清這些現實，教會自己殘酷的真相，因為我天生
start off at the very opposite end of those spectrum. So like these are things that I need to remind myself you know like heading into my 30s or being in my
就站在光譜的另一端。所以這些是我進入 30 歲需要提醒自己的事。
30s now. The last thing I'll say is trust your intuition. And then a related note is be realistic about the life cycle of your relationship. What I mean
最後一件事是相信你的直覺。還有一個相關的點是對你感情的生命週期要實際。我的意思是
by that is I think a lot of times like looking back on all of the relationships that I've um ended over the course of my 20s and 30s, every single one of them
回顧我 20 多歲和 30 多歲結束的所有感情，每一段
looking back on it I was like I wish I had just ended it the first time. I thought like ah like I don't think this is going to work out because like
回想起來我都會想，我真希望第一次這樣想的時候就分手了。「啊，我覺得這行不通」因為
already the sort of like mental hurdles that you've already taken to even get to admitting that to yourself you know like I don't think this is going to work out like I think
你已經在心理上經歷了那麼多，才能向自己承認這件事，你知道的，像是我覺得這行不通，我覺得
we need to break out like break up like you've already done so much mental work to prevent yourself from getting there that like even having that thought it
我們需要分手，你已經做了這麼多心理準備來阻止自己走到這一步，所以即使有這個想法
means that it's pretty much like so far gone that like you really it's not going to uh Like it's probably So what you're telling me is we should hire slowly, fire fast.
意味著已經太遲了，你真的...不會...所以你是說我們應該慢慢僱用，快速解僱。
I forgot we had to do like the career parts, too. We got so caught up in this.
我忘了我們還要做職業部分。我們太沉浸在這個話題了。
Yes. You're so right. Is that crazy? I not to bring the career part into it.
對。你說得對。這是不是很瘋狂？我不是要把職業部分扯進來。
I'm sorry. I'm so ick. She's so She's so capitalism pill. I'm so corporate brainwashed. She's so corporate pill. Oh my god. Um, that's exactly what I thought of, right? Yeah, I totally
抱歉。我太噁心了。她太資本主義洗腦了。她太企業化了。天啊。嗯，這正是我想到的，對吧？是啊，我完全
forgot because floss in the sauce. I also I mean one of my like regrets regrets things with my I agree is that like damn I really wish I ended those
忘了因為太嗨了。我也是，我的遺憾之一就是，我真希望更早結束那些
relationships sooner. Yeah. Instead of like trudging through and like you know trying to do like all these crazy things to make it work. Mhm. Um and also I
感情。是啊。而不是艱難地撐著，做各種瘋狂的事情來維持。嗯，而且我
think part of it is that you don't want to like it's like you don't want to admit defeat. Yeah. Or like fighting for something that is already kind of going
覺得部分原因是你不想承認失敗。是啊。或者為了一件已經在走下坡的事情而戰鬥。
downhill. Yeah. Um Yeah. I think it's also lost aversion too. Loss aversion.
是啊。我覺得也是損失厭惡。損失厭惡。
Yeah. And it's much harder when like going through a breakup like the reason why people don't do it sooner is cuz it's a really bad feeling. it it's no
是啊。分手的時候更難，人們不早點分手的原因是因為那感覺真的很糟。不管怎樣
matter what it like sucks to break up and so you're like avoiding feeling that feeling but obviously that's like a a nearterm solution and not a long-term solution because in the near term you'll
分手都很痛苦，所以你在逃避那種感覺，但顯然這是短期解決方案而不是長期方案，因為短期內你會
feel really bad for the first I don't know days couple of weeks the J curve I'm trying to show you a chart right here curve whenever you do something
感覺很糟，大概幾天到幾週。J 曲線，我在這裡給你看圖表。曲線，每當你做有挑戰性的事
challenging it's going to suck first how bad like real bad even if you're doing you know if you're doing like a a half marathon, a marathon, it's going to suck
一開始會很痛苦，有多痛苦？非常痛苦。即使你在跑半馬、全馬，一開始會很痛苦
first, but then like after you're done with it, like your life gets better.
但完成之後，你的人生會變得更好。
Yeah. Same thing with breakups. Anything hard like leaving a job, it's going to suck first. Yeah. You know, leaving a relationship, it's going to suck first.
是啊。分手也一樣。任何困難的事情像是離職，一開始都會很痛苦。是啊。你知道的，離開一段感情，一開始會很痛苦。
Yeah. But if you've been thinking about it, like probably it's not going to last. But that's also why people don't do challenging things in their lives is because of the near-term suck. Like I
是啊。但如果你一直在想這件事，可能就撐不下去了。但這也是為什麼人們不做有挑戰性的事，因為短期的痛苦。我
learned this from Graham Weaver, one of my professors at the Stanford Graduate School of Business.
從 Graham Weaver 學到這個，他是我在史丹佛商學院的教授之一。
He actually has a chart. I'll see if I can find it. Put it here. Are you Are you Are you like I wish they did make back some of that tuition, but there's
他有一個圖表。我看看能不能找到。放在這裡。你是不是...你是不是...我希望他們能賺回一些學費，但那是
like a chart that Graham Weaver has that shows that like it's just like life is a progression of like downwards like sucky moments. Life is what what is that?
Graham Weaver 的圖表，顯示人生就是一連串往下的痛苦時刻。人生是什麼？那是什麼？
That's a Tik Tok meme that nobody has ever heard of. I don't know what you're talking about, but anyways, life is going to suck a little bit when you do
那是 TikTok 上的迷因，沒人聽過。我不知道你在說什麼，但總之，做有挑戰性的事時人生會
challenging things, but it goes up and to the right. And maybe this looks like left right now because it's reverse, but it's going up and to the right. Yeah.
有點痛苦，但會往右上走。可能現在看起來是左邊因為是反的，但會往右上走。是啊。
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, and then back to the first part of my lesson that I didn't really emphasize that much is just trust your intuition. And that's
是啊。回到我的第一個教訓，我沒特別強調的，就是相信你的直覺。就這樣。
all there is. Like there's I think there have been a lot of times in my 20s into my 30s where I didn't listen to my intuition and I tried to like squish
我覺得在我 20 到 30 多歲有很多次我沒聽從直覺，我試圖壓下
down this like niggling feeling of like something is wrong here. like something I feel really uncomfortable and there's a reason for that. Like your body is trying to tell you something that you
那種揮之不去的感覺，像是有什麼不對勁。我感覺很不舒服，這是有原因的。你的身體在試圖告訴你一些你
refuse to recognize in your brain and so or you can't even recognize in your brain yet. Yeah. Like because your brain is not recognizing it, your like brain
大腦不願意承認的事，或者你的大腦還無法意識到。是啊。因為你的大腦沒有意識到，你的
body gut axis is trying to tell you in another way. So like that's why your like stomach hurts or your stomach feels weird or you have stomach problems when
腦腸軸在用另一種方式告訴你。所以你的胃會痛或感覺怪怪的，或者當
like these you know certain things happen. So, I think just maybe one thing you can do is actually just start to pay attention to it and be like, when do I
某些事情發生時你會有胃的問題。所以，我覺得你可以做的一件事就是開始注意它，想想，我什麼時候
feel kind of like off and weird? Like, is it around certain people? Is it when certain things happen? I bet in like 20 to 30 years there's going to be a
感覺有點不對勁？是在某些人身邊嗎？是某些事情發生的時候嗎？我敢打賭 20 到 30 年後會有
science around this like actual um like studies that are done around the concept of intuition and like your gut where they do some sort of studies around like gut microbiome and then your
關於直覺的科學研究，像是真正的研究，研究腸道微生物組和
like brain and like the axis between it and like how there's like information in your bodily changes and stuff like that.
大腦，以及它們之間的軸，還有你身體變化中的資訊之類的。
I said it. Okay. Can someone research this? This is Can we get like an NSA grant going?
我說完了。好。有人可以研究這個嗎？可以申請個 NSA 補助金嗎？
Okay. So, that concludes our section on dating. We're going to talk about career right after this break. Hey everyone, quick break to share something special.
好。這結束了我們的約會部分。廣告結束後我們會談職業。大家好，先暫停一下分享一些特別的東西。
Sisters matcha. We've launched limited batches of ceremonial grade single estate single cultivar matcha. Straight from the family farm Sheree worked on in Japan. It's pure, authentic, and crafted with intention. Head to
Sisters 抹茶。我們推出了限量批次的儀式級單一莊園單一品種抹茶。直接來自 Sheree 在日本工作過的家族農場。純正、道地、用心製作。前往
sistersmatcha.com to grab yours before it sells out. Make matcha your daily ritual for lasting energy and focus.
sistersmatcha.com 搶購，售完為止。讓抹茶成為你每日獲得持久能量和專注力的儀式。
Okay, Sheree, so why don't you get us started. How did you approach career in your early 20s versus now that you are heading into your 30s? What lessons do
好，Sheree，那你先開始吧。你 20 出頭時如何對待職業，和現在即將進入 30 歲相比？你有什麼
you have? What I'm going to share right now is going to seem counterintuitive.
教訓？我現在要分享的可能聽起來有點反直覺。
In my 20s, I think I overprioritized career over other aspects of my life and put too much focus on my career. And maybe that's why I am where I am today.
在我 20 多歲時，我覺得我過度優先考慮職業而忽略了生活的其他方面，太專注於工作了。也許這就是我今天能走到這一步的原因。
But I think it was at the sacrifice or at the loss of other things. I think the thing to prioritize if I were to do it all over again, and something I'm
但我覺得這是以犧牲其他東西為代價的。如果重來一次，我覺得應該優先考慮的，也是我進入 30 歲在思考的，
thinking about now as I approach my 30s, is relationships. I think relationships um are the make or break of everything of people's career of people's businesses of everything in a
是人際關係。我覺得人際關係是決定一切成敗的關鍵，人們的職業、人們的事業，人生中的一切
life is like a relationship for my life I found that so much of it is people based and so the example I'm going to give is that I was on a work trip in
都是人際關係。我的人生經驗告訴我，很多事情都是以人為基礎的。我舉個例子，2018 年我出差
2018 with a bunch of my cohort people in my cohort we went to Japan and India for a business trip and it was an incredible trip and we went with um you know, some
和我的同期同事們去了日本和印度，是一次很棒的商務旅行。我們和一些
of our VPs of our group, the people who were leading the trip, this is all like a LinkedIn employee trip. It was great.
帶隊的副總裁一起去，這是 LinkedIn 的員工旅行。很棒。
And I just remember that far too often in that trip, I felt like overly stressed out and no one was putting pressure on me to work on this work
我只記得在那次旅行中，我常常感到過度焦慮，沒有人給我壓力要在這次出差
trip. Like the work that was supposed to be done on this trip was to hang out and get to know my other like co-workers and colleagues, but I was just like kind of
工作。這次旅行應該做的事是和其他同事打成一片、相互了解，但我就是有點
heads down in my room sometimes like you know trying to send out an email to people who were in Sunny Bale or my team back in San Francisco. And it was
埋頭在房間裡，你知道的，試著發郵件給 Sunny Bale 的人或舊金山的團隊。這是
because I put all this pressure on myself to do these things that no one else told me to do when I feel like I should have prioritized spending more
因為我給自己施加壓力做這些沒人要求我做的事，而我覺得我應該優先花更多
facetime. Like that's the goal of the trip is to have that face tof face conversation and that like bond building experience. But I don't know, I just
面對面的時間。這次旅行的目的就是要有面對面的對話和建立連結的經驗。但我不知道，我就是
felt kind of weird that I was just like, "Oh, I'm going to prioritize these emails or, you know, this thing that I need to write, this memo I need to
覺得很奇怪，我會想「喔，我要先處理這些郵件，或者這個需要寫的東西，這份需要寫的
write." But um yeah, I don't know. I think I just put pri like prioritized work but in the wrong way. I feel like you are a shining example of having
備忘錄。」但是，我不知道。我覺得我優先考慮了工作，但方式不對。我覺得你是一個很好的
prioritized relationships. Yeah. I feel like you've done an amazing job of it and you have such strong relationships through all of the different phases of your life and all the different like
優先考慮人際關係的榜樣。是啊。我覺得你做得很好，你在人生的各個階段和接觸過的所有不同的
people you've interacted with. Yeah. So like I don't know. I feel like you're kind of being hard on yourself. Maybe I just kind of remember now like when my
人都有很強的關係。是啊。所以我不知道。我覺得你對自己太苛刻了。也許我現在想起來，我的
friends who are these peoples who are on the trip with me like they'll reminisce about an event or like she has FOMO. I have FOMO, but like they'll reminisce
朋友，就是那些一起出差的人，他們會回憶某個活動或者——她有 FOMO。我有 FOMO，但他們會回憶
about like going out or like going to this thing or like it's actually happened on this trip and then outside of this trip too where I've been like,
出去玩或去某個地方，這在那次旅行中發生過，在那次旅行之外也有，我會想
"Oh, I'm going to skip out on that for like a reason that I don't now think is like probably valid, but I'm like one, I have FOBO, and two, I'm just like, what
「喔，我要跳過那個」為了一個我現在覺得可能不太站得住腳的理由，但我一方面有 FOBO，另一方面我就想，我到底
the hell was I doing?" I was like in my room writing an email. How important could that email have been if I could have been with the people who now mean a
在幹嘛？我就在房間裡寫郵件。那封郵件能有多重要，如果我本來可以和現在對我很重要的人
lot to me? And I feel like our relationship could have gone deeper, faster, or whatever. But I don't know. I just feel like I prioritized the wrong
在一起？我覺得我們的關係可以更快更深。但我不知道。我就是覺得我在 20 出頭時優先考慮了錯誤的
parts of career in my early 20s. Yeah.
職業方面。是啊。
Like I I think it's because I thought the grind was all that was needed to get ahead and that's not what is all that is not what is only needed to get ahead. I
我覺得是因為我以為埋頭苦幹就能出人頭地，但那不是唯一需要的。我
think so much of it is relationships and it is facetime and it is people getting to know you and get liking you and wanting to work with you. Um, so I guess
覺得很大一部分是人際關係，是面對面的時間，是讓人認識你、喜歡你、想和你共事。嗯，所以我猜
your point is like even though in in my perspective I feel like you are such a shining example of that you're like I should have done it even more. I think
你的意思是，即使在我看來你是一個很好的榜樣，你還是覺得應該做得更多。我覺得是。是啊。嗯，所以我的建議是
so. Yeah. H so my recommendation is that like I've seen how important relationships are for if you're getting a new job. So much of it is referral based. If you're trying to get promoted
我看到人際關係對找新工作有多重要。很多都是靠推薦的。如果你想升職，
so much of it is people vouching for you. Just really invest in those relationships in your early 20s. getting to know people, giving them, you know, undivided attention and active
很多都是靠人幫你說話。在 20 出頭時真的要投資這些關係，認識人，給他們全神貫注的關注和積極
listening, making people feel heard. I think building those relationships will get you much further than just grinding.
傾聽，讓人感覺被聽到。我覺得建立這些關係會比單純埋頭苦幹讓你走得更遠。
Like you have to be a good employee, I'm sure, but like just just the grind will not help you get to the next level.
你必須是個好員工，當然，但光是埋頭苦幹不會幫你升到下一個層次。
That's true. And the thing that I'm taking with me into my new decade of 30 is risk-taking. I feel like coming out of college, I had a pretty like very
沒錯。而我帶進 30 歲新十年的是冒險精神。我覺得大學畢業後，我很幸運有一份很穩定的工作，
fortunate to have a very stable job and then to go to business school, which I absolutely loved. And now I'm in this new era where it's all about risk, all
然後去念商學院，我非常喜歡。現在我進入了一個全新的階段，一切都是關於冒險，
about trying new things. It's like super scary, but like taking a career risk, I think right now is probably like the best time to do it before I have any
嘗試新事物。超級可怕，但冒職業風險，我覺得現在可能是最好的時機，在我有任何
dependence um crawling around and any more like responsibility in that way. I don't know. I just feel so energized and excited about risk-taking in my career.
依賴者在身邊爬來爬去和更多責任之前。我不知道。我就是對在職業上冒險感到充滿活力和興奮。
And that's kind of how I'm going to see this next phase. I think if you're able to take risks and you don't have dependence or even if you do have
這就是我看待下一階段的方式。我覺得如果你能冒險，而且沒有依賴者，或者即使有
dependence, like taking a risk in your career is really scary. But I'm more afraid of the feeling of not knowing and not doing it and the feeling of regret
依賴者，在職業上冒險真的很可怕。但我更害怕不知道、不去做的感覺和後悔的感覺，
than I am afraid of the feeling of failure or just failure. Yeah, I think that's very brave. Okay, so Jean, what is something that you've learned in your
而不是失敗的感覺或只是失敗。是啊，我覺得那非常勇敢。好，那 Jean，你在
20s and or 30s about career? Yeah, so I do agree with your point of how I think like the way that I approached my 20s, especially because of the first job that
20 多歲和/或 30 多歲時學到了什麼關於職業的事？是啊，我同意你說的，我覺得我對待 20 多歲的方式，
I started in, which was working in finance at Goldman Sachs. It was all about grinding. I do think like having relationships definitely helped, but a lot of that job was about putting in the
尤其是因為我第一份工作是在高盛做金融。一切都是關於埋頭苦幹。人際關係確實有幫助，但那份工作很大一部分是要投入
time, putting in the facetime, meaning like being at your desk, like if you were at your desk like 70 hours a week versus 90 hours a week or 100 hours,
時間，要有面對面的時間，意思是要在辦公桌前，如果你一週在辦公桌前 70 小時對比 90 小時或 100 小時，
like that was definitely noticed. You know what I mean? Like that was the difference. So like a lot of that job success was defined by grinding. So, I
絕對會被注意到。你懂我意思嗎？那就是差別。所以那份工作的成功很大程度上是由埋頭苦幹定義的。所以，我
think I took that mindset into pretty much like all of my other jobs after that. And that was kind of how I approached my career in my 20s where I
覺得我把那種心態帶進了之後的所有工作。那就是我在 20 多歲時對待職業的方式，我
was like, you know, I might not be the best at XYZ, but I can I know I can learn anything and I will like outwork people so that I could be as good as
會想，你知道，我可能不是最擅長某某的，但我知道我可以學會任何東西，我會比別人更努力，這樣我就能像
anyone to do this like one thing or if not better. Yeah, I think it definitely served me well because I think that that mindset made me more unafraid to take on
任何人一樣好地做這件事，甚至更好。是啊，我覺得這確實幫了我，因為這種心態讓我在金融之後更不怕接受
new things after finance. That's when I moved into being into being a product manager at Zingga, which was at the time being a PM without a um technical background. I didn't ever study computer
新事物。那時我轉行去 Zynga 當產品經理，在那個時候沒有技術背景當 PM 是非常
science was very very rare. And I was also much younger than the rest of my cohort. So when I started being a PM, I was 24 and pretty much everyone else who
罕見的。我也比同期的人年輕很多。所以我開始當 PM 時是 24 歲，而其他開始當 PM 的人基本上
was starting as a PM was 28, 29, in their 30s. Part of being a PM is that you have to kind of like tell everyone else on the team what to do or convince
都是 28、29 歲，或者 30 多歲。當 PM 的一部分工作是你要告訴團隊其他人該做什麼或說服
them to do what you want. So like in my role, you know, I was constantly telling like people who were in their 30s, 40s, 50s um what to do and like trying to
他們做你想要的事。所以在我的角色中，我經常要告訴 30、40、50 多歲的人該做什麼並試圖
convince them. So that was really hard. I was like, "Okay, I can do it because I can learn anything. I can master anything." Because I've done that before
說服他們。這真的很難。我會想，「好，我可以做到，因為我可以學會任何東西。我可以掌握任何東西。」因為我之前
in my previous role where I started at Goldman not even knowing how to use Excel. Yikes. Oh, really? Yeah. How did you get hired? Just personality. Just personality hire, I suppose.
在前一份工作做到過，我進高盛時連 Excel 都不會用。天啊。真的嗎？是啊。你怎麼被錄用的？靠個性。靠個性錄用的吧。
Wow. Daddy's money must be nice. Daddy's money must be nice. Is nice that daddy got you a job. Having daddy must be nice, too. Oh.
哇。有個有錢老爸真好。有個有錢老爸真好。老爸幫你找工作真好。有個老爸真好。哦。
She really went there. Yep. That's for another episode. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
她真的說了。對。那是另一集的話題了。也許吧。也許吧。也許吧。
Maybe. The grind helped you. Help. The grind served you, but it didn't help later on. You're just kind of agreeing with me with your own story.
也許吧。埋頭苦幹幫了你。有幫助。埋頭苦幹對你有用，但後來就沒用了。你只是用你自己的故事同意我。
Okay, that's fine, I guess, to like say I agree with you, but give another perspective to it. Yeah. But I but I guess what I'm trying to say is I am
好，那我說我同意你也行，但給一個不同的角度。是啊。但我想說的是我
agreeing with you but not fully agreeing with you. I'm saying that the grind is useful. The grind is helpful. The grind can be your path to becoming sort of
同意你但不是完全同意。我是說埋頭苦幹是有用的。埋頭苦幹是有幫助的。埋頭苦幹可以是你變得
like unstoppable. Yeah. And just like fully confident and it can be your path to becoming unafraid to take on like an experimental period in your life. which
勢不可擋的途徑。是啊。就像完全自信，它可以是你變得不怕嘗試人生中的實驗期的途徑。這
is kind of I think also obviously where I am now with you because we're doing this together which is crazy. I think context matters too like the environment
也顯然是我現在和你一起在的地方，因為我們一起做這件事，這太瘋狂了。我覺得環境也很重要，像是你成長的
that you grew up in like if you're in the financial sector for your early years the grind is really appreciated. I think in it's required. Okay. Is
環境，如果你早年在金融業，埋頭苦幹是被欣賞的。我覺得在那是必要的。好。在
required in the tech world. I the grind is not the culture. Of course, if you do grind, people notice. Sorry. In the big tech world, the grind is not the
科技界是必要的。在大型科技公司，埋頭苦幹不是文化。當然，如果你埋頭苦幹，人們會注意到。抱歉。在大型科技公司，埋頭苦幹不是
culture. Like people notice when you're working hard and obviously you have to have some standard of excellence, but like it's not as usually rewarded the way that it is incentivized in more
文化。人們會注意到你努力工作，顯然你要有一定的卓越標準，但不像在更傳統的行業那樣被獎勵和激勵。
traditional sectors. Yes. I think it also depends on the role because if you are in a product manager role like a lot of your job is to you know win hearts
是的。我覺得也取決於角色，因為如果你是產品經理，你的工作很大一部分是贏得人心
and minds and influence people and convince people to do things that depends on relationships right versus in my role at Goldman where I was an analyst or even as an monkey. Yeah. Like
和影響人、說服人做事，這依賴人際關係，對吧。相比我在高盛的角色，我是分析師或甚至是打雜的。是啊。像是
I was like a a machine with flesh.
我就像是一臺有血肉的機器。
Jesus. No. Like I mean like they wanted me to like do something and like the way to excel was to do that as to do that the best. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And you're
天啊。不是。我的意思是他們要我做某件事，而卓越的方式就是把那件事做到最好。是啊。對吧。是啊。而且你
right. It does depend on the role as well. Yeah. Industry role team. It I mean context matters. So you know take this advice and evaluate your life and
說得對。也取決於角色。是啊。行業、角色、團隊。環境很重要。所以你知道的，聽取這個建議，評估你的人生，
take what serves you and leave what doesn't. Yeah. But I will say I think like a overall truth is that as you get more senior in your career generally
取對你有用的，丟掉沒用的。是啊。但我會說，我覺得一個普遍的真理是，當你在職業上更資深時，通常
most of the time you move away from that purely IC individual contributor role where you're you know only ever measured on your contributions on your output.
大多數時候你會離開那種純粹的個人貢獻者角色，你知道的，只被你的貢獻、你的產出來衡量。
Yeah, that's a better way of putting it.
是啊，那是更好的說法。
On your output relationships matter more and more. Yeah, you're measured on your influence and your ability to influence.
關於你的產出，人際關係變得越來越重要。是啊，你被你的影響力和影響他人的能力來衡量。
Yeah. Um, and that's where the idea of like the brilliant jerk comes in, right?
是啊。嗯，這就是「天才混蛋」這個概念的由來，對吧？
Like the like 10x engineer in tech who is actually like really rude and like a jerk to people. That's the archetypal archetypal um example that HR uses where they're always like, "We actually don't
就像科技業的 10 倍工程師，實際上對人非常粗魯和混蛋。那是 HR 用的典型例子，他們總是說「我們其實不
want that. We don't want to reward that.
想要那種人。我們不想獎勵那種行為。
Even if they're like the best engineer in the world, if they can't work well with other people, we shouldn't continue to promote them." Thank you guys so much
即使他們是世界上最好的工程師，如果他們不能和別人好好合作，我們不應該繼續升他們。」非常感謝大家
for tuning in to this episode of the Tiger Sisters as we reflect on our 20s and 30s and think about how we're going to take some of the lessons into our
收聽這一集的 Tiger Sisters，我們回顧了 20 和 30 多歲，思考如何把一些教訓帶進我們的
next chapter. We hoped you enjoyed this episode and as always, please remember to like, comment, and subscribe. And if you're listening to this on Apple Podcast or Spotify, please give us a
下一個篇章。希望你喜歡這一集，一如既往，請記得按讚、留言和訂閱。如果你在 Apple Podcast 或 Spotify 聽這個節目，請給我們
five-star review. We'll see you next time. Bye bye.
五星好評。我們下次見。拜拜。
點擊句子跳轉到對應位置
This is 20s versus 30s. We're going to compare and contrast dating and career in our 20s versus our 30s. Talk about all the things we learned and the
這是 20 歲對比 30 歲。我們要比較對比 20 歲和 30 歲的約會和職業。談談我們學到的所有事情和
mistakes we wish we avoided. I'm Sheree and I'm 29. I'm Jean and I'm 36. And we're the Tiger Sisters.
我們希望避免的錯誤。我是 Sheree，我 29 歲。我是 Jean，我 36 歲。我們是 Tiger Sisters。
We've heard you guys and all of the questions that you've sent in and we've been able to address some of them in seasons three and seasons 4, but we
我們聽到了你們的問題，你們發來的所有問題，我們已經能夠在第三季和第四季解決其中一些，但我們
really wanted to make a special episode so that we could just super distill all of our main learnings into just one episode. I will be right back after this
真的想做一期特別的節目，這樣我們可以把所有主要的學習濃縮到一集裡。我在這個休息後馬上回來。
break. Hey guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on sistersmatcha.com. We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed ourselves.
嘿夥計們，快速休息讓你們知道我們現在在 sistersmatcha.com 有週邊商品了。我們有我們自己設計的衛衣和 T 恤。
Go check it out. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
去看看。請在 Spotify 和 Apple Podcasts 上給我們五星評價。
These ratings are so important for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters podcast. Thank you for your support. Okay, Sheree, why don't we start with the topic of dating? So, now
這些評價對 Tiger Sisters 播客的分發和生存非常重要。感謝你的支持。好的，Sheree，我們為什麼不從約會的話題開始？那麼，現在
that you're 29, what are some of the lessons that you've learned throughout your 20s and now that you're about to enter your 30s? Yeah, 29 is a weird age.
你 29 歲了，你在整個 20 多歲學到了什麼教訓，現在你即將進入 30 歲？是的，29 歲是一個奇怪的年齡。
I feel like I'm in a strange transitionary period, which means like I'm thinking about this a lot and how it affects my life. I think like the number one thing that I've learned throughout
我感覺我處於一個奇怪的過渡期，這意味著我想了很多這個以及它如何影響我的生活。我認為我在整個
my 20s about dating is not making it about the other person. Oh, yeah. I think like centering it more on myself is something I wish I had done and
20 多歲關於約會學到的第一件事是不要讓它圍繞另一個人。哦，是的。我認為更多地以自己為中心是我希望我做過的事情，
something I'm going to bring with me into my 30s. I totally thought you were going to say the opposite, but keep going. No, like I feel like in my 20s I
也是我要帶進 30 歲的東西。我完全以為你會說相反的話，但繼續說。不，我覺得在我 20 多歲的時候我
went into relationships, friendships too, with a very peopleleasing mindset.
進入關係，也包括友誼，帶著非常討好別人的心態。
And as a result, I would like maybe like discard or let go of pieces of myself that were really important that I shouldn't have let go of for and
結果，我可能會丟棄或放棄對我真正重要的自己的部分，我不應該為了
compromise. Maybe that's the word I'm looking for. Compromised what I was looking for or, you know, like bit my tongue. didn't say how I was actually feeling cuz I was afraid of how that
妥協而放棄。也許那就是我要找的詞。妥協了我在尋找的東西，或者，你知道，咬著舌頭。沒有說我實際的感受因為我害怕那會
would make the other person feel. So in a way I sacrificed I think my own identity for the sake of a relationship but it wasn't even like a relationship
讓對方有什麼感覺。所以在某種程度上我認為我為了一段關係犧牲了我自己的身份但這甚至不是
built on a strong foundation because I wasn't completely myself. Yeah. I think it's kind of it reminds me of scarcity mindset like you're afraid to lose the relationship that you in that you're in.
建立在堅實基礎上的關係因為我不完全是我自己。是的。我認為這讓我想起了稀缺心態，你害怕失去你正在進行的關係。
So you try to like tailor yourself and do things to like hold on to that relationship. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's also just like the question when
所以你試圖調整自己並做一些事情來抓住那段關係。是的，完全是。我是說，這也像是
you go into a job interview, not to make this about career so fast, like when you're going into a job interview, it's like, oh my gosh, I hope they'll like
當你去面試工作時的問題，不是要這麼快讓這變成關於職業的，當你去面試時，就像，哦天哪，我希望他們
me, but you're also interviewing the company, too. You're like, I hope I like them, but why don't I why didn't I bring that mindset? And I'm not blaming myself
喜歡我，但你也在面試公司。你會說，我希望我喜歡他們，但為什麼我沒有...我為什麼沒有帶著那個心態？我不是在責怪自己
or anything. I'm just like this is what I've learned. But like why didn't I bring that mindset into a relationship is as much as like I hope they like me.
或任何事。我只是像這是我學到的。但為什麼我沒有把那個心態帶進一段關係就像我希望他們喜歡我。
I'm like do I even like them? Yeah. I think it's because when you're younger most of the time you're less secure with yourself. Yeah. I think it's growing in
我像是我甚至喜歡他們嗎？是的。我認為這是因為當你更年輕時大多數時候你對自己不那麼有安全感。是的。我認為這是在
confidence, growing in you know self asssurance of who I am. And I mean just like growing of self in general like when I'm 22 the things that really
信心方面成長，在你知道我是誰的自我確信方面成長。我是說就像在自我方面的成長當我 22 歲時真正
define me are like my family experiences and like what I studied in school but since 22 to 29 I've had so many different experiences and I've put myself in positions to have these
定義我的是我的家庭經歷和我在學校學的東西但從 22 歲到 29 歲我有過很多不同的經歷，我把自己放在這些
experiences whether it's travel or friendship just like seeing more reading more going to concerts just like figuring out like more about myself and what I like such that like I'm so
經歷的位置，無論是旅行還是友誼，就像看更多讀更多去音樂會就像弄清楚更多關於我自己和我喜歡什麼這樣我是如此
excited and proud of who I am that like now going into my 30s like I want to double down on that as opposed to letting go of that. H very eloquent. Oh,
對我現在是誰更有信心。我想如果有一件事我會告訴年輕的 Sheree 那就是你真的需要找出你想要什麼。
thanks. I mean I have been thinking about this a lot. Um I think I mean one thing I wrote down um to make this like more tactical like one thing you can do
不是你的父母認為你應該想要什麼，不是你週圍的人想要什麼，而是你實際上想要什麼。
if you're also experiencing this too is that like whenever going into a date or a relationship like I try to now reframe it in my mind as like what am I learning
是的。因為那是當你得到你想要的東西時你會更快樂而不是別人告訴你要得到的東西。
from this experience as opposed to like oh my god it's a breakup and like being so sad which I definitely get that way but like kind of turning it into like
那麼你呢？現在你 36 歲了你對 20 歲和 30 歲約會有什麼看法？
okay that happened but what did I learn about myself and what I like and what I don't like and in that way it makes it a little less devastating. Yeah. I think
我認為我 20 多歲時學到的最大教訓是我不知道我想要什麼在一段關係中。
that's a good way to go through life in general is to just reframe everything as a learning experience. Mhm. Right. Cuz then you always gain something from it
我認為我對關係應該是什麼樣子有這些理想化的想法但它們不是基於我真正需要什麼。
no matter what. Like maybe in your mind you do feel like oh like I lost this relationship or I lost this job opportunity or you kind of reframe
我會約會那些在紙面上看起來很完美的人但我們沒有真正的連結。
you're like okay what did I actually learn? What did I gain from this? Um, instead I think that also just goes back to like how you said the scarcity versus
然後我會因為我投入了時間而留在這些關係中即使它們不滿足我。
abundance mindset. It's like super abundance mindset. Like what can I learn from this? And like there are other good things coming my way. It's funny. I thought you were going to say the
現在在我 30 多歲我更清楚我需要什麼。我知道我自己的價值觀是什麼。
opposite because I kind of have like a similar lesson, but I phrased it in a very different way. And I hear it.
我不願意為不適合我的人妥協。是的我認為這是關鍵區別。
Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, no, the way that I had phrased it, but it's sort of like has like a similar germ as yours. The way I said it is that it's actually not
我認為在你 20 多歲時你更願意妥協因為你認為你有時間或因為你不確定你想要什麼。
about you, and I know like you sort of said this phrase in in like earlier episodes. Actually, the way I'd say it is don't take it personally.
但在你 30 多歲你知道時間是有限的而且你更確定你需要什麼。
And in so many ways, like it's actually not about you. And like I can see how that can be concerning to people to sort of like desenter yourself from your own
完全是。讓我們換個話題談談職業。你關於 20 多歲職業學到了什麼？
like self-narrative, but instead I actually think in so many ways it is incredibly freeing. Like it is like think about like if you walk through life with that thought like really
哦這是一個好問題。我認為我 20 多歲時最大的錯誤是我太專注於取悅我的老闆。
deeply embedded in you and you're like it's not about me. Like think about how like free and light you'll be right and like not taking things personally. Yeah.
我會做任何事來得到認可即使這意味著犧牲我自己的幸福。
Exactly. Like if someone cuts you off on the highway, it's not about me. They're rushing because they have to get home to pick up their kids or like they really
我會說是的接受每一個專案即使我已經不堪重負。我會工作到很晚即使我不需要。
have to go to the bathroom. It's not about me. Um but in this instance, I think it's more so like if you go through a breakup or you feel like you
我認為這對我產生了影響。它導致了倦怠。它導致了怨恨。
were rejected or even like it applies to friendships, right? um or even careers like if you were rejected for something or something doesn't work out, it's not always on you. It's not about you
現在我明白設定界限的重要性。你不能總是說是的然後期望茁壯成長。
necessarily. That's something that honestly took me a really long time to learn. I think because the perspective that I came from was one being the eldest daughter and then two just being
是的我認為這是很多人在 20 多歲時學到的東西。這種想法是你必須證明自己。
like really type A and like always trying to be like controlling things around me and being a people pleaser and um also kind of being like sort of like
但有時候證明自己意味著以犧牲你的健康為代價。那是不可持續的。
parentified a little bit growing up and always trying to like make things good and make things right and like have things happen correctly for everyone and try to maximize everyone's well-being and happiness.
完全是。那你呢？你 20 多歲時對職業學到了什麼？
um perhaps at the expense of your own.
我認為我學到的最大的一課是網絡的重要性。不是以一種表面的方式而是以一種真實的方式。
Exactly. Yeah. And so I think like that was sort of the mindset that I grew up with and so I always felt like well there's always something I can do to
在我 20 多歲早期我認為如果我只是努力工作機會就會來找我。但那不是它的運作方式。
like fix the situation. like I always took on the responsibility and I sort of did make it about me and I did take things very personally whether it was
你必須為自己倡導。你必須讓人們知道你想要什麼。
you know like not getting the promotion that you thought you were going to get um and you like very much were told that you deserved and blah blah right like
你必須建立真誠地支持你的關係。
you have a story about that too right so it applies to I think both relationships and careers just I think just like sit with that and then try to pull it out
這改變了我的職業生涯。當我開始投資於關係時事情開始更快地發生。
sometimes if you're kind of feeling bad about something like try on that thought and be like it's not about me. Like don't take it personally. Like what are
是的我認為人們低估了這一點。你的網絡真的很重要。
ways that like put yourself in the other person's shoes and be like why would they have done that in a way like what is the reason they would have done that
這不僅僅是關於你認識誰而是關於誰認識你以及他們為你說話時會說什麼。
that has nothing to do with me at all? I think it's really interesting that your advice to say it's not about you and my advice is to say it is about me. So I'm
完全是。讓我們談談 20 歲和 30 歲的倦怠因為這是很多人問的事情。
not really sure what to make of that.
是的我認為在我 20 多歲時我不承認倦怠是真實的。我只是認為這是工作的一部分。
Like it is but it isn't about you. We literally gave sort of like the opposite. No, they're not exactly opposite. They're like kind of orthogonal. Like I still think they work
我會工作直到我筋疲力盡然後我會休息幾天然後再做一遍。這是一個不健康的循環。
together. They do work together because in in one complete phrase, sorry to interrupt you, but you could say like it is about me, but I don't take it personally when it's
現在在我 30 多歲我更加主動地預防倦怠。我意識到它正在發生的跡象。
not. It's about me or what? How did you say it like focus on myself or something? Focus on my needs. Center.
我休息不是因為我必須而是因為我選擇這樣做。這是一個大的心態轉變。
Yeah, I guess. Oh, you know what? I guess to say it eloquently, it would be like focus on what matters to you.
是的。我認為這是 20 多歲和 30 多歲之間的關鍵區別。在 20 多歲你是被動的。
Prioritize your needs so that when you give it your all and it doesn't work out, you know it's not about you because you've said everything that you've needed to say. You've voiced, you know,
在你 30 多歲你變得更主動。你為可能發生的事情做計劃。
all of your concerns. Does that make more sense? Yeah. Do you want to take a stab at it? Yeah. Or or like if it is about you, then like good. Like because
完全是。讓我們做一個迷你練習。想想你現在的工作或關係。
Yeah. Yeah, cuz then you're like, I was truly myself and it didn't work out and like I can't go through life pretending to be someone else or like changing
問自己我是因為真正想要而留下來還是因為害怕離開？
myself in a way that I'm not comfortable with. I mean, I've already tried that and it freaking sucks. I might drop.
如果是後者可能是時候做出改變了。
Yeah, we don't need to go there. I'm seeing a therapist to be. I was pretending to be a different version of myself in college and a people pleasing
這是一個好問題。我認為很多人不問自己這個問題。
person and I kind of like lost myself in that and in the relationship I was in and ultimately I discovered my own voice and what matters to me and I knew I
他們只是繼續做他們一直在做的事情因為這是舒適的。但舒適不總是讓你快樂的東西。
could no longer be in that relationship in college.
完全同意。讓我們談談孤獨因為這是另一個很多人在 20 多歲和 30 多歲都會掙紮的話題。
Remember that. Rude. She talks a lot. You talk a lot.
是的。我認為孤獨是我 20 多歲時沒有意識到但現在回顧起來真正影響我的事情。
You got a lot of stories. I can't keep track of all of them. Yeah. I think that's actually one of the most powerful lessons is that if nothing else, you are
我被很多人包圍。我有朋友我有同事。但我經常感到孤獨。
yourself, people respect that more and you can just like hold on to your self-respect. Yeah, I do think that that the people respecting you more thing is something that I've learned over time in
我認為這是因為我和人在一起但我沒有真正和他們連結。那些是表面的關係。
general. even just my own perception of people and like even if someone is like I don't know like the nerdiest most like a like socially awkward like whatever like weirdest person when they're
現在在我 30 多歲我更注重有更少但更深的關係。
genuinely themselves you just respect them so much more for it and you actually it's very endearing like you actually naturally like them better as opposed to if they were to try to be
質量重於數量。是的。我認為這是很多人隨著年齡增長學到的。
like I don't know some sort of like cool persona that is not actually true to who they are. Yeah, I totally feel that. And I feel like
你不需要一百個朋友。你只需要幾個真正理解你並支持你的人。
people can see I at least I can see through really clearly um for the most part when someone's pretending to be something that they're not. And I get pretty turned off by
完全是。讓我們談談自我價值因為這是貫穿約會和職業的一個主題。
that. Watch out. She can see through you. Be yourself. So, Jean, what is your take on dating in your 20s versus 30s since you've experienced both? Unlike
是的。我認為我 20 多歲時最大的掙紮是我不知道我的價值。
me. Yeah, dating in your 20s for me was all about having fun and like discovering yourself by like getting to know someone and learning about other people, learning about humanity, doing
我會接受低於我應得的因為我不認為我值得更好的。
things for the lore, for for the plot.
這體現在我的關係中我會和對我不好的人在一起。這體現在我的職業中我會接受低薪。
Yeah. For the future memoir. Yeah. I just I don't think I took dating in my 20s very seriously. I wasn't as I would say thoughtful as you are about it in
這需要時間來建立那個自我價值。但一旦你有了它就會改變一切。
your 20s. And like I definitely didn't have any sort of formula. I was more so just very open to all like different types of people, all different walks of
是的。我完全同意。我認為自我價值是你約會和職業成功的基礎。
life. I wasn't structured like you are now. Yeah. Well, I feel like I'm more structured now, but I remember like even when I was like 22, 23, 24, like I would
如果你不認為你值得好東西你就不會去追求它們。你會將就。
be devastated after a breakup and your advice to me would be like, don't take it so seriously. Oh. And like I couldn't not. You know what I mean? What did you
完全是。讓我們做另一個迷你練習。想想一件你想要但害怕追求的事情。
think when I said that to you? I Well, I was thinking like should have. No, I was like, you don't know what I'm feeling.
問自己是什麼阻礙了你。是恐懼嗎？是缺乏自信嗎？是別人告訴你的話嗎？
But I don't know. I just took things way more seriously than I think like now hearing that I can see why you're like, don't take it so seriously. Yeah. Well,
一旦你識別出障礙你就可以開始努力克服它。
but also like I mean I went through breakups for sure where I was like heartbroken and devastated, but they all sort of like passed so it was
這是一個很好的練習。我認為很多人甚至不知道是什麼阻礙了他們。
fine. Okay. And then now that I'm in my 30s, I do feel like I have some lessons that I'm taking with me from my 20s, especially coming out of several very
他們只是感覺被困住了但他們沒有找出原因。第一步是意識到。
serious relationships that I've had that are kind of like shaping the way I'm approaching dating now in my 30s. Okay.
完全是。讓我們談談一些最後的想法。
The first one is that I would say I would no longer date for potential.
我認為我對 20 多歲和 30 多歲的最大收穫是你的 20 多歲是探索的時候。
Yeah. I'm sorry, but all the Tik Toks they tell me now, all the advice is they don't date you don't date for potential is what they tell you. Yeah, that's kind
你是在弄清楚你是誰你想要什麼。犯錯是可以的。那是你學習的方式。
of a hard shift, especially when I feel like in the past I have dated people who have like incredibly high potential and I've seen, you know, some of the people that I've dated become
但你的 30 多歲是關於優化。你利用你學到的東西來做出更好的決定。
extremely like successful in different ways. I think what they say on TikTok is they're like, "Don't be Barbara the Builder." Yeah. And it's very easy, I
你不需要從頭開始因為你已經知道什麼對你有效什麼沒效。
think, for a lot of women to fall into that role naturally because women are taught to be very like nurturing and women are taught to help others society.
是的我喜歡那個框架。探索對比優化。這是思考人生不同階段的好方式。
So, it's very easy to feel I think especially if you're dating someone who you respect, if you respect them and you're like excited about them, you want to help them with like their career,
完全是。另一個收穫是不要害怕做出改變。
with their aspirations, with their dreams. and you kind of can see how you can like grow together. What I would do now is just take someone 100% at face
如果某件事不起作用你不必繼續做它。你可以改變方向你可以轉向你可以重新開始。
value. The cold hard facts of what we see in front of us. Yeah. And by face value, I mean who they are today and not just who and the definition of who they
這不是失敗。這是成長。是的。我認為這是一個很多人需要聽到的重要信息。
are today is not what they say, it's what they do. I don't know the example that came to my head that's like an unrelated anecdote is like let's say you
改變是可怕的但有時候這是你能為自己做的最好的事情。
see someone or you're with someone who's like yeah I love to do like marathons and I'm so into like Iron Mans and I'm just always working out all the time and
完全是。好的讓我們結束一下。如果你喜歡這一集請訂閱 Tiger Sisters 播客。
I'm just really into fitness but like physically they're very obese. So like would you trust them by what they say or would you actually look at like what you
在 Spotify 和 Apple Podcasts 上給我們五星評價。這對我們的分發真的很有幫助。
see in front of you their your their daily actions? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So like I say that as an extreme example because you can actually physically see in that example the contrast between
而且如果你知道有人會從這一集中受益請與他們分享。
what they say and what they actually do and how they like physically show up dayto day. But it's so it's also like so true when it comes to everything else.
分享就是關愛。感謝收聽。我們下次見。
Yeah. Right. If someone is like, "Yeah, like I can't wait to have a family and I can't wait to, you know, have children and get married and blah blah all this
拜拜。
stuff, but they're actually acting in a way that is counter to that." Then like you really have to just take them at what how they act, not what they say.
但他們的行為實際上是相反的。」那你就真的必須看他們怎麼做，而不是他們怎麼說。
Yeah. Someone that I had dated um over over the last two years, anyways, I won't get more detail than that. Um he was just like uh oh my gosh like I love
是啊。我過去兩年交往的某個人，總之，我就不說太多細節了。他就是那種「哦天啊，我超愛
you know going on road trips and you know I love going like let's go to this place. I was like oh hey yeah let's do it let's do it. Hello. He didn't know
公路旅行，你知道的，我喜歡去這些地方。」我說「好啊，走吧走吧。」結果他根本不會
how to drive. No it wasn't that. It was just that he like never planned anything even have a license. Even though he said I mean that was true. didn't have a US
開車。不是那樣。就是他從來不計劃任何事，連駕照都沒有。雖然他說的是真的。他沒有美國
license but like but I'm like okay so you love all you love going to these places or you want to go to these national parks but like
駕照，但我想說，好吧，你說你喜歡去這些地方，想去那些國家公園，但是
okay so planet you know you know what they say on Tik Tok I love the taste I love the taste the taste of nothing what I've never heard them say that on Tik Tok
好吧，你知道 TikTok 上怎麼說嗎？「我喜歡那個味道，我喜歡那個味道，什麼都沒有的味道。」我從沒在 TikTok 上聽過這個
okay three more lessons that I'll just go through really quickly much more quicker much more quickly than the last one is this one kind of like sounds like
好，還有三個教訓我快速帶過，比上一個快很多。這個聽起來有點負面，
a downer, but it's really just being realistic. And it's that love alone is not enough. Mhm. And I think I don't know maybe that sounds really obvious
但其實只是實際一點。就是光有愛是不夠的。我覺得這聽起來很明顯
but when you're sort of like in the throws of a relationship and you are you know getting all the serotonin and the oxytocin and everything and you're like
但當你深陷在一段感情裡，你知道的，獲得所有的血清素和催產素什麼的，然後你
deeply in love it can be very easy I think to think that like you can sort of overcome any obstacles because you are so in love with each other. If we are to
深深地愛著，我覺得很容易認為你可以克服任何障礙，因為你們太相愛了。如果我們要
have three children God willing they need to be supported. Love alone is not enough. Yeah. Otherwise, I would still be engaged or I'd be married at this point.
有三個孩子，願上帝保佑，他們需要被供養。光有愛是不夠的。是啊。否則我現在應該還訂著婚或已經結婚了。
Okay. Next one. When you marry someone or when you commit to someone for the long term as your partner, you are marrying not just that person, but you are marrying a lifestyle.
好。下一個。當你和某人結婚或長期承諾在一起時，你嫁的不只是那個人，你嫁的是一種生活方式。
I think that's something people don't really talk about. And their family.
我覺得這是大家不太談論的事。還有他們的家人。
Yes. Is that included in lifestyle? Yeah. Exactly. So like how do they interact with their family? Like how do they you know what do they do for their holidays? Like how do they structure
對。那包含在生活方式裡嗎？對，沒錯。所以像是他們怎麼和家人互動？他們假期都做什麼？他們怎麼安排
their years? How do they think about their like life planning? Like do they think five years in advance? Do they think 10 years in advance? Or do they
一整年？他們怎麼想自己的人生規劃？他們是想五年後？十年後？還是
just think about the day the dayto-day and just kind of like roll with things, right? Like that those are all components of lifestyle. M um not to mention like all the other aspects like
只想著每一天，隨遇而安，對吧？這些都是生活方式的組成部分。更不用說其他方面像是
you know politics, religion, um health, working out, socioeconomic class, like all of those things are components of a lifestyle and like very practically that is what you are opting into. That's not
你知道的，政治、宗教、健康、運動、社會經濟階層，所有這些都是生活方式的組成部分，而且非常實際地說，這就是你選擇進入的。這不是
very romantic. Yeah. And it's not meant to be. But it's just like the I guess the reality of it. I guess for me like I'm saying these things. I think because
很浪漫。是啊。這本來就不是要浪漫。但這就是現實。我想我說這些是因為
I am I've mentioned this before like inherently a very romantic person. So like I've had to like sort of come to these realizations and like teach myself the cold hard truth because I naturally
我之前提過，我本質上是個非常浪漫的人。所以我必須認清這些現實，教會自己殘酷的真相，因為我天生
start off at the very opposite end of those spectrum. So like these are things that I need to remind myself you know like heading into my 30s or being in my
就站在光譜的另一端。所以這些是我進入 30 歲需要提醒自己的事。
30s now. The last thing I'll say is trust your intuition. And then a related note is be realistic about the life cycle of your relationship. What I mean
最後一件事是相信你的直覺。還有一個相關的點是對你感情的生命週期要實際。我的意思是
by that is I think a lot of times like looking back on all of the relationships that I've um ended over the course of my 20s and 30s, every single one of them
回顧我 20 多歲和 30 多歲結束的所有感情，每一段
looking back on it I was like I wish I had just ended it the first time. I thought like ah like I don't think this is going to work out because like
回想起來我都會想，我真希望第一次這樣想的時候就分手了。「啊，我覺得這行不通」因為
already the sort of like mental hurdles that you've already taken to even get to admitting that to yourself you know like I don't think this is going to work out like I think
你已經在心理上經歷了那麼多，才能向自己承認這件事，你知道的，像是我覺得這行不通，我覺得
we need to break out like break up like you've already done so much mental work to prevent yourself from getting there that like even having that thought it
我們需要分手，你已經做了這麼多心理準備來阻止自己走到這一步，所以即使有這個想法
means that it's pretty much like so far gone that like you really it's not going to uh Like it's probably So what you're telling me is we should hire slowly, fire fast.
意味著已經太遲了，你真的...不會...所以你是說我們應該慢慢僱用，快速解僱。
I forgot we had to do like the career parts, too. We got so caught up in this.
我忘了我們還要做職業部分。我們太沉浸在這個話題了。
Yes. You're so right. Is that crazy? I not to bring the career part into it.
對。你說得對。這是不是很瘋狂？我不是要把職業部分扯進來。
I'm sorry. I'm so ick. She's so She's so capitalism pill. I'm so corporate brainwashed. She's so corporate pill. Oh my god. Um, that's exactly what I thought of, right? Yeah, I totally
抱歉。我太噁心了。她太資本主義洗腦了。她太企業化了。天啊。嗯，這正是我想到的，對吧？是啊，我完全
forgot because floss in the sauce. I also I mean one of my like regrets regrets things with my I agree is that like damn I really wish I ended those
忘了因為太嗨了。我也是，我的遺憾之一就是，我真希望更早結束那些
relationships sooner. Yeah. Instead of like trudging through and like you know trying to do like all these crazy things to make it work. Mhm. Um and also I
感情。是啊。而不是艱難地撐著，做各種瘋狂的事情來維持。嗯，而且我
think part of it is that you don't want to like it's like you don't want to admit defeat. Yeah. Or like fighting for something that is already kind of going
覺得部分原因是你不想承認失敗。是啊。或者為了一件已經在走下坡的事情而戰鬥。
downhill. Yeah. Um Yeah. I think it's also lost aversion too. Loss aversion.
是啊。我覺得也是損失厭惡。損失厭惡。
Yeah. And it's much harder when like going through a breakup like the reason why people don't do it sooner is cuz it's a really bad feeling. it it's no
是啊。分手的時候更難，人們不早點分手的原因是因為那感覺真的很糟。不管怎樣
matter what it like sucks to break up and so you're like avoiding feeling that feeling but obviously that's like a a nearterm solution and not a long-term solution because in the near term you'll
分手都很痛苦，所以你在逃避那種感覺，但顯然這是短期解決方案而不是長期方案，因為短期內你會
feel really bad for the first I don't know days couple of weeks the J curve I'm trying to show you a chart right here curve whenever you do something
感覺很糟，大概幾天到幾週。J 曲線，我在這裡給你看圖表。曲線，每當你做有挑戰性的事
challenging it's going to suck first how bad like real bad even if you're doing you know if you're doing like a a half marathon, a marathon, it's going to suck
一開始會很痛苦，有多痛苦？非常痛苦。即使你在跑半馬、全馬，一開始會很痛苦
first, but then like after you're done with it, like your life gets better.
但完成之後，你的人生會變得更好。
Yeah. Same thing with breakups. Anything hard like leaving a job, it's going to suck first. Yeah. You know, leaving a relationship, it's going to suck first.
是啊。分手也一樣。任何困難的事情像是離職，一開始都會很痛苦。是啊。你知道的，離開一段感情，一開始會很痛苦。
Yeah. But if you've been thinking about it, like probably it's not going to last. But that's also why people don't do challenging things in their lives is because of the near-term suck. Like I
是啊。但如果你一直在想這件事，可能就撐不下去了。但這也是為什麼人們不做有挑戰性的事，因為短期的痛苦。我
learned this from Graham Weaver, one of my professors at the Stanford Graduate School of Business.
從 Graham Weaver 學到這個，他是我在史丹佛商學院的教授之一。
He actually has a chart. I'll see if I can find it. Put it here. Are you Are you Are you like I wish they did make back some of that tuition, but there's
他有一個圖表。我看看能不能找到。放在這裡。你是不是...你是不是...我希望他們能賺回一些學費，但那是
like a chart that Graham Weaver has that shows that like it's just like life is a progression of like downwards like sucky moments. Life is what what is that?
Graham Weaver 的圖表，顯示人生就是一連串往下的痛苦時刻。人生是什麼？那是什麼？
That's a Tik Tok meme that nobody has ever heard of. I don't know what you're talking about, but anyways, life is going to suck a little bit when you do
那是 TikTok 上的迷因，沒人聽過。我不知道你在說什麼，但總之，做有挑戰性的事時人生會
challenging things, but it goes up and to the right. And maybe this looks like left right now because it's reverse, but it's going up and to the right. Yeah.
有點痛苦，但會往右上走。可能現在看起來是左邊因為是反的，但會往右上走。是啊。
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, and then back to the first part of my lesson that I didn't really emphasize that much is just trust your intuition. And that's
是啊。回到我的第一個教訓，我沒特別強調的，就是相信你的直覺。就這樣。
all there is. Like there's I think there have been a lot of times in my 20s into my 30s where I didn't listen to my intuition and I tried to like squish
我覺得在我 20 到 30 多歲有很多次我沒聽從直覺，我試圖壓下
down this like niggling feeling of like something is wrong here. like something I feel really uncomfortable and there's a reason for that. Like your body is trying to tell you something that you
那種揮之不去的感覺，像是有什麼不對勁。我感覺很不舒服，這是有原因的。你的身體在試圖告訴你一些你
refuse to recognize in your brain and so or you can't even recognize in your brain yet. Yeah. Like because your brain is not recognizing it, your like brain
大腦不願意承認的事，或者你的大腦還無法意識到。是啊。因為你的大腦沒有意識到，你的
body gut axis is trying to tell you in another way. So like that's why your like stomach hurts or your stomach feels weird or you have stomach problems when
腦腸軸在用另一種方式告訴你。所以你的胃會痛或感覺怪怪的，或者當
like these you know certain things happen. So, I think just maybe one thing you can do is actually just start to pay attention to it and be like, when do I
某些事情發生時你會有胃的問題。所以，我覺得你可以做的一件事就是開始注意它，想想，我什麼時候
feel kind of like off and weird? Like, is it around certain people? Is it when certain things happen? I bet in like 20 to 30 years there's going to be a
感覺有點不對勁？是在某些人身邊嗎？是某些事情發生的時候嗎？我敢打賭 20 到 30 年後會有
science around this like actual um like studies that are done around the concept of intuition and like your gut where they do some sort of studies around like gut microbiome and then your
關於直覺的科學研究，像是真正的研究，研究腸道微生物組和
like brain and like the axis between it and like how there's like information in your bodily changes and stuff like that.
大腦，以及它們之間的軸，還有你身體變化中的資訊之類的。
I said it. Okay. Can someone research this? This is Can we get like an NSA grant going?
我說完了。好。有人可以研究這個嗎？可以申請個 NSA 補助金嗎？
Okay. So, that concludes our section on dating. We're going to talk about career right after this break. Hey everyone, quick break to share something special.
好。這結束了我們的約會部分。廣告結束後我們會談職業。大家好，先暫停一下分享一些特別的東西。
Sisters matcha. We've launched limited batches of ceremonial grade single estate single cultivar matcha. Straight from the family farm Sheree worked on in Japan. It's pure, authentic, and crafted with intention. Head to
Sisters 抹茶。我們推出了限量批次的儀式級單一莊園單一品種抹茶。直接來自 Sheree 在日本工作過的家族農場。純正、道地、用心製作。前往
sistersmatcha.com to grab yours before it sells out. Make matcha your daily ritual for lasting energy and focus.
sistersmatcha.com 搶購，售完為止。讓抹茶成為你每日獲得持久能量和專注力的儀式。
Okay, Sheree, so why don't you get us started. How did you approach career in your early 20s versus now that you are heading into your 30s? What lessons do
好，Sheree，那你先開始吧。你 20 出頭時如何對待職業，和現在即將進入 30 歲相比？你有什麼
you have? What I'm going to share right now is going to seem counterintuitive.
教訓？我現在要分享的可能聽起來有點反直覺。
In my 20s, I think I overprioritized career over other aspects of my life and put too much focus on my career. And maybe that's why I am where I am today.
在我 20 多歲時，我覺得我過度優先考慮職業而忽略了生活的其他方面，太專注於工作了。也許這就是我今天能走到這一步的原因。
But I think it was at the sacrifice or at the loss of other things. I think the thing to prioritize if I were to do it all over again, and something I'm
但我覺得這是以犧牲其他東西為代價的。如果重來一次，我覺得應該優先考慮的，也是我進入 30 歲在思考的，
thinking about now as I approach my 30s, is relationships. I think relationships um are the make or break of everything of people's career of people's businesses of everything in a
是人際關係。我覺得人際關係是決定一切成敗的關鍵，人們的職業、人們的事業，人生中的一切
life is like a relationship for my life I found that so much of it is people based and so the example I'm going to give is that I was on a work trip in
都是人際關係。我的人生經驗告訴我，很多事情都是以人為基礎的。我舉個例子，2018 年我出差
2018 with a bunch of my cohort people in my cohort we went to Japan and India for a business trip and it was an incredible trip and we went with um you know, some
和我的同期同事們去了日本和印度，是一次很棒的商務旅行。我們和一些
of our VPs of our group, the people who were leading the trip, this is all like a LinkedIn employee trip. It was great.
帶隊的副總裁一起去，這是 LinkedIn 的員工旅行。很棒。
And I just remember that far too often in that trip, I felt like overly stressed out and no one was putting pressure on me to work on this work
我只記得在那次旅行中，我常常感到過度焦慮，沒有人給我壓力要在這次出差
trip. Like the work that was supposed to be done on this trip was to hang out and get to know my other like co-workers and colleagues, but I was just like kind of
工作。這次旅行應該做的事是和其他同事打成一片、相互了解，但我就是有點
heads down in my room sometimes like you know trying to send out an email to people who were in Sunny Bale or my team back in San Francisco. And it was
埋頭在房間裡，你知道的，試著發郵件給 Sunny Bale 的人或舊金山的團隊。這是
because I put all this pressure on myself to do these things that no one else told me to do when I feel like I should have prioritized spending more
因為我給自己施加壓力做這些沒人要求我做的事，而我覺得我應該優先花更多
facetime. Like that's the goal of the trip is to have that face tof face conversation and that like bond building experience. But I don't know, I just
面對面的時間。這次旅行的目的就是要有面對面的對話和建立連結的經驗。但我不知道，我就是
felt kind of weird that I was just like, "Oh, I'm going to prioritize these emails or, you know, this thing that I need to write, this memo I need to
覺得很奇怪，我會想「喔，我要先處理這些郵件，或者這個需要寫的東西，這份需要寫的
write." But um yeah, I don't know. I think I just put pri like prioritized work but in the wrong way. I feel like you are a shining example of having
備忘錄。」但是，我不知道。我覺得我優先考慮了工作，但方式不對。我覺得你是一個很好的
prioritized relationships. Yeah. I feel like you've done an amazing job of it and you have such strong relationships through all of the different phases of your life and all the different like
優先考慮人際關係的榜樣。是啊。我覺得你做得很好，你在人生的各個階段和接觸過的所有不同的
people you've interacted with. Yeah. So like I don't know. I feel like you're kind of being hard on yourself. Maybe I just kind of remember now like when my
人都有很強的關係。是啊。所以我不知道。我覺得你對自己太苛刻了。也許我現在想起來，我的
friends who are these peoples who are on the trip with me like they'll reminisce about an event or like she has FOMO. I have FOMO, but like they'll reminisce
朋友，就是那些一起出差的人，他們會回憶某個活動或者——她有 FOMO。我有 FOMO，但他們會回憶
about like going out or like going to this thing or like it's actually happened on this trip and then outside of this trip too where I've been like,
出去玩或去某個地方，這在那次旅行中發生過，在那次旅行之外也有，我會想
"Oh, I'm going to skip out on that for like a reason that I don't now think is like probably valid, but I'm like one, I have FOBO, and two, I'm just like, what
「喔，我要跳過那個」為了一個我現在覺得可能不太站得住腳的理由，但我一方面有 FOBO，另一方面我就想，我到底
the hell was I doing?" I was like in my room writing an email. How important could that email have been if I could have been with the people who now mean a
在幹嘛？我就在房間裡寫郵件。那封郵件能有多重要，如果我本來可以和現在對我很重要的人
lot to me? And I feel like our relationship could have gone deeper, faster, or whatever. But I don't know. I just feel like I prioritized the wrong
在一起？我覺得我們的關係可以更快更深。但我不知道。我就是覺得我在 20 出頭時優先考慮了錯誤的
parts of career in my early 20s. Yeah.
職業方面。是啊。
Like I I think it's because I thought the grind was all that was needed to get ahead and that's not what is all that is not what is only needed to get ahead. I
我覺得是因為我以為埋頭苦幹就能出人頭地，但那不是唯一需要的。我
think so much of it is relationships and it is facetime and it is people getting to know you and get liking you and wanting to work with you. Um, so I guess
覺得很大一部分是人際關係，是面對面的時間，是讓人認識你、喜歡你、想和你共事。嗯，所以我猜
your point is like even though in in my perspective I feel like you are such a shining example of that you're like I should have done it even more. I think
你的意思是，即使在我看來你是一個很好的榜樣，你還是覺得應該做得更多。我覺得是。是啊。嗯，所以我的建議是
so. Yeah. H so my recommendation is that like I've seen how important relationships are for if you're getting a new job. So much of it is referral based. If you're trying to get promoted
我看到人際關係對找新工作有多重要。很多都是靠推薦的。如果你想升職，
so much of it is people vouching for you. Just really invest in those relationships in your early 20s. getting to know people, giving them, you know, undivided attention and active
很多都是靠人幫你說話。在 20 出頭時真的要投資這些關係，認識人，給他們全神貫注的關注和積極
listening, making people feel heard. I think building those relationships will get you much further than just grinding.
傾聽，讓人感覺被聽到。我覺得建立這些關係會比單純埋頭苦幹讓你走得更遠。
Like you have to be a good employee, I'm sure, but like just just the grind will not help you get to the next level.
你必須是個好員工，當然，但光是埋頭苦幹不會幫你升到下一個層次。
That's true. And the thing that I'm taking with me into my new decade of 30 is risk-taking. I feel like coming out of college, I had a pretty like very
沒錯。而我帶進 30 歲新十年的是冒險精神。我覺得大學畢業後，我很幸運有一份很穩定的工作，
fortunate to have a very stable job and then to go to business school, which I absolutely loved. And now I'm in this new era where it's all about risk, all
然後去念商學院，我非常喜歡。現在我進入了一個全新的階段，一切都是關於冒險，
about trying new things. It's like super scary, but like taking a career risk, I think right now is probably like the best time to do it before I have any
嘗試新事物。超級可怕，但冒職業風險，我覺得現在可能是最好的時機，在我有任何
dependence um crawling around and any more like responsibility in that way. I don't know. I just feel so energized and excited about risk-taking in my career.
依賴者在身邊爬來爬去和更多責任之前。我不知道。我就是對在職業上冒險感到充滿活力和興奮。
And that's kind of how I'm going to see this next phase. I think if you're able to take risks and you don't have dependence or even if you do have
這就是我看待下一階段的方式。我覺得如果你能冒險，而且沒有依賴者，或者即使有
dependence, like taking a risk in your career is really scary. But I'm more afraid of the feeling of not knowing and not doing it and the feeling of regret
依賴者，在職業上冒險真的很可怕。但我更害怕不知道、不去做的感覺和後悔的感覺，
than I am afraid of the feeling of failure or just failure. Yeah, I think that's very brave. Okay, so Jean, what is something that you've learned in your
而不是失敗的感覺或只是失敗。是啊，我覺得那非常勇敢。好，那 Jean，你在
20s and or 30s about career? Yeah, so I do agree with your point of how I think like the way that I approached my 20s, especially because of the first job that
20 多歲和/或 30 多歲時學到了什麼關於職業的事？是啊，我同意你說的，我覺得我對待 20 多歲的方式，
I started in, which was working in finance at Goldman Sachs. It was all about grinding. I do think like having relationships definitely helped, but a lot of that job was about putting in the
尤其是因為我第一份工作是在高盛做金融。一切都是關於埋頭苦幹。人際關係確實有幫助，但那份工作很大一部分是要投入
time, putting in the facetime, meaning like being at your desk, like if you were at your desk like 70 hours a week versus 90 hours a week or 100 hours,
時間，要有面對面的時間，意思是要在辦公桌前，如果你一週在辦公桌前 70 小時對比 90 小時或 100 小時，
like that was definitely noticed. You know what I mean? Like that was the difference. So like a lot of that job success was defined by grinding. So, I
絕對會被注意到。你懂我意思嗎？那就是差別。所以那份工作的成功很大程度上是由埋頭苦幹定義的。所以，我
think I took that mindset into pretty much like all of my other jobs after that. And that was kind of how I approached my career in my 20s where I
覺得我把那種心態帶進了之後的所有工作。那就是我在 20 多歲時對待職業的方式，我
was like, you know, I might not be the best at XYZ, but I can I know I can learn anything and I will like outwork people so that I could be as good as
會想，你知道，我可能不是最擅長某某的，但我知道我可以學會任何東西，我會比別人更努力，這樣我就能像
anyone to do this like one thing or if not better. Yeah, I think it definitely served me well because I think that that mindset made me more unafraid to take on
任何人一樣好地做這件事，甚至更好。是啊，我覺得這確實幫了我，因為這種心態讓我在金融之後更不怕接受
new things after finance. That's when I moved into being into being a product manager at Zingga, which was at the time being a PM without a um technical background. I didn't ever study computer
新事物。那時我轉行去 Zynga 當產品經理，在那個時候沒有技術背景當 PM 是非常
science was very very rare. And I was also much younger than the rest of my cohort. So when I started being a PM, I was 24 and pretty much everyone else who
罕見的。我也比同期的人年輕很多。所以我開始當 PM 時是 24 歲，而其他開始當 PM 的人基本上
was starting as a PM was 28, 29, in their 30s. Part of being a PM is that you have to kind of like tell everyone else on the team what to do or convince
都是 28、29 歲，或者 30 多歲。當 PM 的一部分工作是你要告訴團隊其他人該做什麼或說服
them to do what you want. So like in my role, you know, I was constantly telling like people who were in their 30s, 40s, 50s um what to do and like trying to
他們做你想要的事。所以在我的角色中，我經常要告訴 30、40、50 多歲的人該做什麼並試圖
convince them. So that was really hard. I was like, "Okay, I can do it because I can learn anything. I can master anything." Because I've done that before
說服他們。這真的很難。我會想，「好，我可以做到，因為我可以學會任何東西。我可以掌握任何東西。」因為我之前
in my previous role where I started at Goldman not even knowing how to use Excel. Yikes. Oh, really? Yeah. How did you get hired? Just personality. Just personality hire, I suppose.
在前一份工作做到過，我進高盛時連 Excel 都不會用。天啊。真的嗎？是啊。你怎麼被錄用的？靠個性。靠個性錄用的吧。
Wow. Daddy's money must be nice. Daddy's money must be nice. Is nice that daddy got you a job. Having daddy must be nice, too. Oh.
哇。有個有錢老爸真好。有個有錢老爸真好。老爸幫你找工作真好。有個老爸真好。哦。
She really went there. Yep. That's for another episode. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
她真的說了。對。那是另一集的話題了。也許吧。也許吧。也許吧。
Maybe. The grind helped you. Help. The grind served you, but it didn't help later on. You're just kind of agreeing with me with your own story.
也許吧。埋頭苦幹幫了你。有幫助。埋頭苦幹對你有用，但後來就沒用了。你只是用你自己的故事同意我。
Okay, that's fine, I guess, to like say I agree with you, but give another perspective to it. Yeah. But I but I guess what I'm trying to say is I am
好，那我說我同意你也行，但給一個不同的角度。是啊。但我想說的是我
agreeing with you but not fully agreeing with you. I'm saying that the grind is useful. The grind is helpful. The grind can be your path to becoming sort of
同意你但不是完全同意。我是說埋頭苦幹是有用的。埋頭苦幹是有幫助的。埋頭苦幹可以是你變得
like unstoppable. Yeah. And just like fully confident and it can be your path to becoming unafraid to take on like an experimental period in your life. which
勢不可擋的途徑。是啊。就像完全自信，它可以是你變得不怕嘗試人生中的實驗期的途徑。這
is kind of I think also obviously where I am now with you because we're doing this together which is crazy. I think context matters too like the environment
也顯然是我現在和你一起在的地方，因為我們一起做這件事，這太瘋狂了。我覺得環境也很重要，像是你成長的
that you grew up in like if you're in the financial sector for your early years the grind is really appreciated. I think in it's required. Okay. Is
環境，如果你早年在金融業，埋頭苦幹是被欣賞的。我覺得在那是必要的。好。在
required in the tech world. I the grind is not the culture. Of course, if you do grind, people notice. Sorry. In the big tech world, the grind is not the
科技界是必要的。在大型科技公司，埋頭苦幹不是文化。當然，如果你埋頭苦幹，人們會注意到。抱歉。在大型科技公司，埋頭苦幹不是
culture. Like people notice when you're working hard and obviously you have to have some standard of excellence, but like it's not as usually rewarded the way that it is incentivized in more
文化。人們會注意到你努力工作，顯然你要有一定的卓越標準，但不像在更傳統的行業那樣被獎勵和激勵。
traditional sectors. Yes. I think it also depends on the role because if you are in a product manager role like a lot of your job is to you know win hearts
是的。我覺得也取決於角色，因為如果你是產品經理，你的工作很大一部分是贏得人心
and minds and influence people and convince people to do things that depends on relationships right versus in my role at Goldman where I was an analyst or even as an monkey. Yeah. Like
和影響人、說服人做事，這依賴人際關係，對吧。相比我在高盛的角色，我是分析師或甚至是打雜的。是啊。像是
I was like a a machine with flesh.
我就像是一臺有血肉的機器。
Jesus. No. Like I mean like they wanted me to like do something and like the way to excel was to do that as to do that the best. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And you're
天啊。不是。我的意思是他們要我做某件事，而卓越的方式就是把那件事做到最好。是啊。對吧。是啊。而且你
right. It does depend on the role as well. Yeah. Industry role team. It I mean context matters. So you know take this advice and evaluate your life and
說得對。也取決於角色。是啊。行業、角色、團隊。環境很重要。所以你知道的，聽取這個建議，評估你的人生，
take what serves you and leave what doesn't. Yeah. But I will say I think like a overall truth is that as you get more senior in your career generally
取對你有用的，丟掉沒用的。是啊。但我會說，我覺得一個普遍的真理是，當你在職業上更資深時，通常
most of the time you move away from that purely IC individual contributor role where you're you know only ever measured on your contributions on your output.
大多數時候你會離開那種純粹的個人貢獻者角色，你知道的，只被你的貢獻、你的產出來衡量。
Yeah, that's a better way of putting it.
是啊，那是更好的說法。
On your output relationships matter more and more. Yeah, you're measured on your influence and your ability to influence.
關於你的產出，人際關係變得越來越重要。是啊，你被你的影響力和影響他人的能力來衡量。
Yeah. Um, and that's where the idea of like the brilliant jerk comes in, right?
是啊。嗯，這就是「天才混蛋」這個概念的由來，對吧？
Like the like 10x engineer in tech who is actually like really rude and like a jerk to people. That's the archetypal archetypal um example that HR uses where they're always like, "We actually don't
就像科技業的 10 倍工程師，實際上對人非常粗魯和混蛋。那是 HR 用的典型例子，他們總是說「我們其實不
want that. We don't want to reward that.
想要那種人。我們不想獎勵那種行為。
Even if they're like the best engineer in the world, if they can't work well with other people, we shouldn't continue to promote them." Thank you guys so much
即使他們是世界上最好的工程師，如果他們不能和別人好好合作，我們不應該繼續升他們。」非常感謝大家
for tuning in to this episode of the Tiger Sisters as we reflect on our 20s and 30s and think about how we're going to take some of the lessons into our
收聽這一集的 Tiger Sisters，我們回顧了 20 和 30 多歲，思考如何把一些教訓帶進我們的
next chapter. We hoped you enjoyed this episode and as always, please remember to like, comment, and subscribe. And if you're listening to this on Apple Podcast or Spotify, please give us a
下一個篇章。希望你喜歡這一集，一如既往，請記得按讚、留言和訂閱。如果你在 Apple Podcast 或 Spotify 聽這個節目，請給我們
five-star review. We'll see you next time. Bye bye.
五星好評。我們下次見。拜拜。