- ... were standing there. Everyone is waiting, 'cause at any moment an arrow could just fly through your neck, and there's people holding shotguns. And the

大家站在那裡等，因為隨時可能有一箭穿過你脖子，還有人拿著霰彈槍。

anthropologist, this little guy, is standing there in the front, and he's going, "Enimole." He's going, "Brothers." And then it happened. Then you start hearing people screaming,

人類學家、那個小個子站在最前面，一直說「Enimole」、「兄弟」。然後發生了。你開始聽到有人尖叫，

"Mashco! Mashco!" And people are screaming and women are lifting children and running into the huts and the dogs and chickens are going nuts and— - So fear, fear.

「Mashco！Mashco！」大家在尖叫，女人抱起孩子跑進茅屋，狗和雞亂成一團——所以是恐懼。

- Fear. He's going, "Look there. He has a bow. He has a bow." And we're looking up the beach and there's just this clan walking down the beach with

恐懼。他說「看那裡，他有弓」。我們往沙灘上看，有一群人沿沙灘走來，拿著

these seven-foot bows and they're hunched over and they're pointing at us. They're going, "Look at that one. Look, there's a gun there." And you can see them communicating

七呎長的弓，彎著腰、指著我們。他們說「看那個，那裡有槍」。你可以看到他們在

to each other and the butterflies are swirling off the beach and they can hit a spider monkey out of the treetops at 40 meters. They can sneak

彼此溝通，蝴蝶從沙灘上飛起。他們能在四十公尺外從樹頂射中蜘蛛猴。他們能潛近、

up and you will never know they're there. And so when that arrow passes through your body, you'll only have a moment to realize it before you fall over.

你完全不會發現。所以當那支箭穿過你身體，你只有一瞬間意識到，然後倒下。

In order for any of this to make sense, I have to show you this footage.

要讓這一切說得通，我得給你們看這段畫面。

- And this has not been shown ever before.

這從未公開過。

- This is a world first.

這是世界首度。

- The following is a conversation with Paul Rosolie, his third time on the podcast.

以下是與 Paul Rosolie 的對談，他第三次上播客。

Paul is a naturalist, explorer, writer and is someone who has dedicated his life to protecting the Amazon rainforest and celebrating the beauty of the natural world.

Paul 是自然學家、探險家、作家，一生致力保護亞馬遜雨林、頌揚自然之美。

He has a new book coming out in a few days titled Jungle Keeper that you should definitely go pre-order now.

他幾天後要出新書《Jungle Keeper》，建議現在就去預購。

It tells some intense stories about his time in the jungle over the past several years, building up to a few epic recent events, including a new

書裡講他過去幾年在叢林的緊張經歷，一路鋪陳到最近幾件史詩級事件，包括與

extended encounter with a non-contacted tribe that we discuss in this podcast.

未接觸部落的新一次長時間接觸，我們在這集會聊到。

Both the book and audiobook are great.

書和有聲書都很棒。

I highly recommend it. If you would like to support Paul and his team in their mission to protect the jungle, go to junglekeepers.org.

我強烈推薦。若想支援 Paul 和團隊保護叢林的使命，請到 junglekeepers.org。

You can help with donations or by spreading the word or checking out the gala that Paul is hosting in New York on January 22nd in a few days.

可以捐款、幫忙宣傳，或參加 Paul 一月二十二日在紐約辦的晚宴。

They are doing all they can to help raise funds for the mission of safeguarding as much of the rainforest as possible, and I think it's a mission worth fighting for.

他們盡一切努力為保護盡可能多雨林的使命籌款，我認為這使命值得奮鬥。

The Amazon jungle is one of the most special and beautiful places on Earth.

亞馬遜叢林是地球上最特別、最美的地方之一。

As an aside, allow me to look back briefly and mention something that I've been struggling with a bit.

順帶一提，我想簡短回顧、提一件我一直在掙紮的事。

For context, I traveled to the Amazon rainforest with Paul a while back.

背景是：我前陣子和 Paul 去了亞馬遜雨林。

It was an adventure of a lifetime, with lots of crazy twists and turns.

那是一生一次的冒險，充滿瘋狂轉折。

We did record a podcast out there, literally in the jungle.

我們在那裡、就在叢林裡錄了一集播客。

Episode 429, if you want to go check it out. It was awesome.

第四二九集，有興趣可以去找。很精彩。

And we also recorded a bunch of disparate footage of the journey just for fun.

我們也拍了一堆零散的旅程畫面，只是好玩。

And I would still love to somehow put all that together into a cohesive video in case it's interesting to someone.

我還是很想把那些剪成一支完整的影片，若有人有興趣的話。

But I've learned just how difficult it is to organize and edit a pile of chaotically recorded footage like that.

但我學到：整理、剪輯那樣亂拍的一堆素材有多難。

So, let's see if I can pull it off. But in any case, this kind of raw vlog-style video is something that I would love to be able to do more of

所以看看我能不能搞定。總之這種原始 vlog 風格的影片，我很希望能多做，

as a way to celebrate amazing human beings like Paul and others, including everyday people who I meet on my travels.

來頌揚像 Paul 這樣了不起的人，還有旅途中遇到的普通人。

So, I'll keep trying, tinkering, learning, and I ask for your patience and support along the way.

我會繼續嘗試、摸索、學習，也請大家多包涵、多支援。

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.

回到正題。這裡是 Lex Fridman Podcast。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here's Paul Rosolie.

想支援請看說明裡的贊助商，那裡也有聯絡我、提問、回饋的連結。親愛的朋友，有請 Paul Rosolie。

We've survived a challenging time out in the jungle about a year and a half ago, and since then, your life has increasingly gotten more intense. So, you've achieved

我們一年多前在叢林裡熬過了一段艱難時光，之後你的人生越來越緊繃。你已經達成

the incredible feat of saving now more than 130,000 acres of rainforest.

拯救超過十三萬英畝雨林的驚人成就。

And the goal that you're working towards is protecting 200,000 acres more.

你現在的目標是再保護二十萬英畝。

And doing so while facing extreme danger from narcos, narco-traffickers, so-called Cocaine Mafia in an escalating drug war. This is insane. These are new developments.

而在毒梟、所謂古柯鹼黑幫、毒品戰升級的極端危險下做這件事。這很瘋狂。這是新發展。

Illegal loggers, as we've talked about before. Gold miners, and the incredible recent encounter with an uncontacted tribe. And we'll talk about all of this. So your new

非法伐木，我們之前聊過。淘金者，以及最近與未接觸部落的驚人接觸。我們都會聊。你的新

book, Jungle Keeper, opens with the killing of two loggers by the warriors of an uncontacted tribe, the Mashco Piro, in August 2024.

書《Jungle Keeper》開頭是 2024 年 8 月，未接觸部落 Mashco Piro 的戰士殺了兩名伐木工。

And then you reveal that you had your own dramatic encounter with the tribe two months later in October 2024. So if I may, let me read the opening of the book.

然後你透露自己在兩個月後、2024 年 10 月與該部落有戲劇性接觸。若可以，我來讀書的開頭。

"Far out on the western edge of the Amazon rainforest, deep in the Peruvian jungle, a pair of loggers plunged their chainsaws into the buttressed roots of an ancient ironwood. An ironwood, or

「在亞馬遜雨林西緣深處、秘魯叢林裡，兩名伐木工把鏈鋸切入一棵古老鐵木的板根。鐵木，或

shihuahuaco, of this size is a giant among giants, an emergent sentinel that reaches heights of 160 feet, towering over the rest of the canopy." I've read that many are

shihuahuaco，這種尺寸是巨木中的巨木，高聳的哨兵可達一百六十呎，凌駕整片樹冠。」順帶一提我讀到很多

over 1,000 years old, by the way, as an aside. And you've found ones that are 1,200 years old.

超過一千年。你也找到過一千兩百年的。

- Anyway, you continue.

總之你繼續寫。

"This particular tree had started its life as a tiny sapling in the great jungle, a story that began before the Spanish reached Peru, long before the United States was even a

「這棵樹在叢林裡從小苗開始生長，故事始於西班牙抵達秘魯之前、美國還只是個

dream. At a time when Leonardo da Vinci was still honing his talents in a far away part of the world, through the Renaissance, the First and Second World Wars, and the birth of our

夢之前。在李奧納多·達文西還在世界另一端磨練才華的時代，歷經文藝復興、兩次世界大戰、我們

grandparents." This tree was out there slowly charging upward, anonymous, just one pillar among the billions of others. But on this day, in August 2024, when the two loggers worked, this

祖輩的誕生。」這棵樹在那裡慢慢長高、無名，只是數十億棵中的一根。但在 2024 年 8 月這天，兩名伐木工工作時，這棵

witness of the centuries came crashing down to the canopy with such cataclysmic power that it shook the earth.

見證數世紀的巨木以毀滅性的力量倒向樹冠，震動大地。

And then you go on to talk about how the shaking of the earth was felt and heard by the uncontacted tribe.

接著你寫到大地震動被未接觸部落感受到、聽到。

You go on to describe how these particular loggers were killed by the uncontacted tribe of Mashco Piro. What do we know about these warriors of the uncontacted tribe?

你接著描述這兩名伐木工如何被 Mashco Piro 未接觸部落殺害。我們對這些未接觸部落的戰士瞭解多少？

And so, what happened with these loggers was that local people told them, "Don't go out there. Don't go into these territories." And what happens is that people that aren't from... There's this thing with

所以這兩名伐木工的事是：當地人跟他們說「別去那裡、別進那些領土」。但非當地人……有這種情況：

the jungle, people don't believe that it's as wild as the legends say. And so when they say there's calatos out there, there's wild people out there,

叢林的人，大家不信傳說裡那麼野。所以當他們說那裡有 calatos、有野人，

these loggers from another region go, "Yeah, that's just some story.

這些從別區來的伐木工說「對啦，只是傳說。

We're fine. We'll go. We have shotguns." They don't realize you're dealing with a civilization of people that is still nomadic, still uses bamboo-tipped arrows, still

我們沒事，我們去，我們有霰彈槍。」他們不知道你面對的是一支仍遊牧、仍用竹尖箭、仍

lives naked in the Amazon rainforest, has knowledge of medicines that we've yet to encounter or may never discover, and that they can hit a spider monkey out of the treetops at 40 meters.

赤身生活在亞馬遜雨林、擁有我們尚未遇見或可能永遠發現不了的醫藥知識、能在四十公尺外從樹頂射中蜘蛛猴的文明。

while you're using a chainsaw, they can sneak up and you will never know they're there.

你在用鏈鋸時，他們能潛近、你完全不會發現。

And so when that arrow passes through your body, you'll only have a moment to realize it before you fall over.

所以當那支箭穿過你身體，你只有一瞬間意識到，然後倒下。

- And we're looking at something you posted on your Instagram- ... which are the arrows that they use, which are bigger than you.

我們在看你在 Instagram 上貼的……就是他們用的箭，比你還高。

So they're like six or seven feet.

大概六、七呎。

- Six, seven feet. More like seven feet. And that's- - Look how sharp that is.

六、七呎。更像七呎。而且——看有多尖。

- ... incredibly sharp. They cure it over the fire and they have a way of sharpening it.

超尖。他們用火烤過、有辦法磨利。

That edge of bamboo becomes incredibly knife-sharp. You can cut meat with it easily; I've done it. These arrows... Look at that. I mean, I'm 5'9". That's easily a seven-foot arrow.

竹緣變得像刀一樣利。切肉很容易，我試過。這些箭……你看，我五呎九，這箭輕鬆七呎。

- Yeah, so for people who are just listening, this "arrow" is really a spear.

對，所以只聽音訊的人，這「箭」其實更像矛。

Some people would think it was a spear, but they're shooting this thing with a gigantic bow.

有人會以為是矛，但他們用巨大的弓射這東西。

- Yeah, and so to be holding that... Look at that, they even twist the fletching so the arrow spins in the air. They have incredible

對，拿著那個……你看，他們甚至扭羽讓箭在空中鏇轉。他們有驚人的

craftsmanship, and then you see all the little string on there is plant fibers they've woven, and then this is them.

工藝，上面那些細繩是他們編的植物纖維，這就是他們。

- Yeah, the warriors of the tribe.

對，部落的戰士。

- The warriors of the tribe. And so the fact that we're sitting here talking on microphones, and that we have airplanes and cell phones and all the things we have in

部落的戰士。所以我們坐在這裡用麥克風講話、有飛機和手機和現代世界的一切，

the modern world, and there's still... We still live in this age where there's, right now at this moment, people living out in the jungle who have been

而世上還有……我們仍活在這個時代：此時此刻，有人住在叢林裡、從

there since before history, is an incredible thing.

有歷史之前就在那裡，這很不可思議。

- Let me look this up on Perplexity: what are the technologies we modern humans have that the Mashco Piro do not? It's just interesting to think about the kind of

我來用 Perplexity 查：我們現代人有、Mashco Piro 沒有的科技有哪些？想想我們

technologies we take for granted. Energy and power, obviously all the electricity generation, grids, batteries, solar panels, and electric motors, metals and materials, mass-produced steel, aluminum, advanced alloys, plastics, composites, glass,

視為理所當然的科技很有意思。能源與電力，顯然所有發電、電網、電池、太陽能板、電動機；金屬與材料：量產鋼鐵、鋁、先進合金、塑膠、複合材料、玻璃、

concrete, all of those things.

水泥，這些他們都沒有。

- All of those things.

全部都沒有。

- Tools, of course, and machinery. The infrastructure of roads and bridges and buildings, and the weapons of war—everything but the spears and arrows that they have—and the

工具、機械。道路橋梁建築的基礎建設，戰爭武器——除了他們有的矛和箭之外的一切——還有

medicine and biology. Of course they probably have complicated medicines that they've developed for their own— ...that are available within the jungle.

醫藥與生物。他們可能有在叢林裡發展出的複雜醫藥。

- I mean, that entire list is no.

我是說，那一整張清單他們都沒有。

- I mean, metal, I think you have to be able to excavate into the earth and forge metal.

我是說，金屬，你得能挖地、冶煉金屬。

These people don't even...

這些人連……

So they don't know that water... They see water that they drink. They don't know that water freezes, because they've never seen it. They don't know that water boils,

所以他們不知道水……他們看到水就喝。他們不知道水會結冰，因為沒見過。他們不知道水會沸騰，

because they don't even make clay pots. They just have their bamboo and their string.

因為他們連陶罐都不做。他們只有竹子和繩子。

And so they're living an incredibly simple life. So all of that, I mean, even a camera is a miracle to them.

所以他們過著極其簡單的生活。所以這一切，我是說，連相機對他們都是奇蹟。

You have to bend your mind to even understand how far back they are.

你得彎曲腦子才能理解他們落後多遠。

It's like looking into thousands of years ago, like the Stone Age.

就像看幾千年前，像石器時代。

- When they hear the sounds of the chainsaws, the sounds of machinery in the distance- ...I wonder how they can possibly comprehend what that is.

當他們聽到鏈鋸聲、遠處機械聲——我在想他們怎麼可能理解那是什麼。

- I think they view it as a demonic destructive force. And when I show you the encounter that we had, we got a few takeaways.

我覺得他們視之為惡魔般的毀滅力量。當我給你們看我們那次接觸，我們得到幾點收穫。

We left with more questions than answers, but one of the things they were able to communicate across the language barrier was, "Why are you cutting down the trees?" They don't like it.

我們離開時問題比答案多，但他們能跨越語言障礙傳達的一件事是：「你們為什麼要砍樹？」他們不喜歡。

- Yeah. That represents to them the danger and destruction that the outside world brings.

對。那對他們代表外界帶來的危險與毀滅。

- They see us as the destroyers of worlds.

他們把我們看成世界的毀滅者。

- So tell me about this encounter in October of 2024.

跟我說說 2024 年 10 月那次接觸。

- So, in order to tell you about that encounter I think we need to orient people into where we're talking about. We're talking about this river that

要講那次接觸，得先讓大家知道我們說的是哪裡。我們說的是這條河，

runs through the western edge of the Amazon rainforest that you know well now, after spending time there with me. It's a high tributary of the Amazon where you have the main river channel and

流經亞馬遜雨林西緣，你跟我去過之後現在很熟了。是亞馬遜的一條上遊支流，有主河道、

then smaller and smaller and smaller tributaries. And the smaller you get, the less trafficked they are. And so this river has remained wild through the centuries. And

然後支流越來越小。越往上遊走，人跡越少。所以這條河幾百年來一直保持原始。而

even during the '90s when there was a mahogany boom where people went out for it, trees, there were very few people going up this river.

就算九〇年代桃花心木熱、大家去砍樹的時候，也很少人往這條河上遊走。

20 years ago when I first got to the region and people told me there were uncontacted tribes out there, it was always in the realm of something...

二十年前我剛到這地區、大家跟我說那裡有未接觸部落時，那感覺就像……

You know, it's like people say, "There's Bigfoot," or, "Don't go there, it's haunted." It was like a tall tale almost.

就像有人說「有大腳怪」或「別去那裡，鬧鬼」。幾乎像民間傳說。

And even the Peruvian government at the time I first went to Peru, which was 2006, their official position was that the tribes are a myth. There's no such thing as the tribes.

甚至我剛去秘魯時——2006年——秘魯政府官方立場是：部落是神話，沒有這種部落。

That was the official

那是官方

position. And you just... You would hear these stories of people that got shot. You'd meet someone high up a river, four days upriver, deep in the

立場。你會聽到有人中箭的故事。你在河上遊、深入

Amazon, that had an arrow. And you'd look at this thing and it had this, you know, mega gravity. And so as we've created Jungle Keepers and now we're protecting

亞馬遜四天的地方遇到某人，身上帶著箭。你看那支箭，有種很重的份量。我們創立 Jungle Keepers、現在在保護

130,000 acres of this river, we're protecting the plants and the animals and the ancient trees, and trying to preserve the ecosystem, and counting the butterflies and conducting

這條河十三萬英畝，保護動植物和古樹、維繫生態、數蝴蝶、做

ecological surveys, and what we've inadvertently found ourselves the caretakers of, is the fact that these people, in order to continue living, have to remain isolated, want to remain

生態調查；我們不知不覺成了照顧者：這些人要繼續活下去，就必須保持隔離、也想保持

isolated. That's their one mandate as a civilization: the tribes of the Mashco Piro. And so, in October, as Jungle Keepers now, we're working with the indigenous people.

隔離。那是他們作為文明的一條鐵律：Mashco Piro 部落。所以十月時，Jungle Keepers 現在與原住民合作。

What we do is we take loggers and gold miners and make

我們做的是把伐木工、淘金者

them into rangers and give them better jobs, and we try to protect the forest.

變成巡護員、給他們更好的工作，並盡力保護森林。

And those people who live up in the remote indigenous community, they called us on a satellite phone and they said, "Directors, you've been working with us and telling us you wanna help us.

住在偏遠原住民社羣的人用衛星電話打給我們說：「主任，你們一直跟我們合作、說想幫忙。

The tribes are coming out.

部落出來了。

What do we do?" - So, even they don't really know, when the tribes emerge from the deep jungle- ... what to do?

我們該怎麼辦？」所以連他們也不知道——當部落從叢林深處出現時——該怎麼辦。

- They were terrified.

他們嚇壞了。

- What was your thinking when you got the phone call?

接到電話時你心裡怎麼想？

- When we got the phone call, it was a mix of... because we're over here trying to get land concessions and doing all this important work, and part of me was like,

接到電話時心情很複雜……我們在這邊爭取土地許可、做各種重要工作，一部分心想：

"That can't be real, so we're gonna keep our heads down." - Bigfoot is emerging- ... from the forest.

「不可能是真的，我們先低調。」——大腳怪從森林裡出來了。

- Like, yeah, sure. And then we hung up and we said, "Okay, maybe tomorrow if they're still there or something." And then it was crazy because

對啊，當然。然後我們掛了電話說「好吧，也許明天他們還在的話再說」。接著就瘋了，因為

it was probably about noon and we had an important day of meetings.

大概中午，我們那天有很多重要會議。

We had a meeting with the police, we had a meeting with the landowner, we were trying to do all this stuff for the conservation work.

我們跟警察開會、跟地主開會，忙保育相關的事。

And then I got together with the core team of directors, JJ, Mohsin, Stéphane, and we said, "Wait, if this is real, we have to get

然後我和幾位核心主任——JJ、Mohsin、Stéphane——聚在一起說：「等等，要是真的，我們得

there now. Like now, now." And so we dropped what we were doing, canceled the meetings, and put other people on them. We got a boat and we called Ignacio, our most hardcore ranger.

現在就去。現在、現在。」於是我們放下手邊的事、取消會議、讓別人代班，弄了船，打給我們最硬核的巡護員 Ignacio。

- Who has been shot.

就是中過箭的那位。

- Who in 2019 was shot in the head by an arrow and still bears the scar, and he barely survived.

2019 年被箭射中頭部、至今還有疤，差點沒活下來。

And we said, "Look, this is going down." He said, "I already know because the whole river knows."

我們說：「聽著，事情發生了。」他說：「我早就知道，整條河都知道了。」